It’s becoming unfashionable to have kids

[Housebuyingfamily]

Birth rates are on the floor which people frame as, people would have more kids were it not for the cost of them or climate change, etc etc. But I feel like it’s now more than this. As if we have a global child-free culture that’s growing every day and it’s becoming increasingly “unfashionable” to have kids, even looked down upon.

I've not seen that at all. The mothers I know (not all of the fathers) care very deeply about the life they can provide for the child. They just don't think it's vital to have a detached four bedroom house and a huge income, because many people have lovely lives without those things.

I think unplanned is a bit different. I totally get that a lot of people have a surprise pregnancy and don’t want to have an abortion, they make it work. I was unplanned when my mum was 23, it was definitely not ideal - the country we were living in had just had a massive economic collapse - but she doesn’t regret it. Of course things can and do turn out OK in the end.

However, actively planning to have kids when you have really unsuitable circumstances doesn’t really sit right with me - it’s just all “I want” rather than “the child needs”.

You're being a bit disingenuous here.

Nobody is saying you need a 4 bedroom detached house. I have said, repeatedly and clearly, that I have a personal belief people should try to maximise the resources they can for their children.

If you don't there is always someone picking up the slack, whether it is family, friends, or the state.

Maybe they think their lives are lovely. Maybe they don't know anything else.

I agree to an extent - I suppose it depends on what's considered 'unsuitable.' Being homeless would be unsuitable but to me living in a small flat would be fine. The idea that unless your life meets a particularly standard it's not 'good enough' really grates on me - as though people who live on council estates are automatically failing.

Yup. I know a family who just had their third planned child while both long term on the dole living in a one bedroom flat in a shit hole.

I think a lot of people would agree with you. When it comes to my own children, if they wanted children I'd happily pick up the slack if needed - I don't expect them to survive on their own or miss out on things because they can't quite get to a particular level. I also know plenty of people who live on very low resources but no one is picking up the slack - they're just making it work and their children are doing very well.

I know a very wealthy person in a six bedroom house with three children in private school who is basically a scammer. We all know people whose life choices are questionable.

@GratitudeGrump @BlackShuck3
That’s what @Justthistime1234 was pointing out upthread when quoting a recent FT article. According to the article, the global population will start dropping after 2080, which is a good thing for the planet, but we’re going to have a rough time in the next 50-60 years when the imbalance between old and young people becomes significant.

I think my age group (50) and people now in their 30’s, for example, may have to make some tough decisions about life expectancy and accept that the current push to extend life as long as possible isn’t sustainable. I personally have no objections to euthanasia when I’m elderly and if life is difficult due to a lack of younger people, it might be a good option.

One thing I know from formerly being a primary teacher is that money is no guarantee of a good or happy childhood. Dysfunction is just as rife in wealthy families, it's just that they're often better at hiding it.

From a totally personal and biased point of view, what concerns me is that there are people out there who would like to have children, who are kind and good people that would make decent parents but who feel under pressure to prove themselves in some way before they consider themselves worthy to be parents. To those people I would say that parenting is hard and expensive but the vast majority of people make it work, usually without huge resources and you don't have to guarantee a perfect childhood for your child in order to qualify to be a parent. For one thing, where you start out isn't necessarily where you'll end up. DH and I had our first in a small shitty house. 13 years later we're in a nice four bed (albeit in an area that's fine but which snobs consider 'undesirable'). I think I'm doing a pretty good job. I'm so glad I had children. For me (and I emphasise for me, not necessarily for anyone else) they make my life more interesting and fun and I can't imagine being without them.

Having children isn't for everyone. But if you are considering it, don't let voices telling you you have to be a certain way make the decision for you.

Anyone who decides whether to have kids based on what's in fashion / trends probably wouldn't be a good parent anyway 😂 so maybe it's for the best...

I don't think it's becoming 'unfashionable', but more a change in a combo of circumstances.

People are able to be more honest about not wanting kids, and changes in dating/relationships and less young marriage means even people who do want them aren't guaranteed to have found a partner to have them with... that seems different to say 50 years ago.

As an educator you should know it's a lot more nuanced than that. And your anecdote is not backed up by data.

"Poverty is the most significant obstacle to happiness and well-being for children in England, report finds": https://www.york.ac.uk/news-and-events/news/2020/research/poverty-obstacle-children-england/

"The findings suggest that while the majority of children in England are relatively satisfied with their lives (54% reported often feeling extremely happy), children living in poverty score their well-being 10% lower on average than their more affluent peers."

Child poverty is a massive problem in our society that we need to fix precisely because the outcomes of children from poorer households are so dire compared to the most wealthy.

It’s not just the happy childhood though. It’s the worse life outcomes - poorer children get worse grades, worse jobs, live in worse areas, have lower life expectancy and are more likely to be obese. We don’t really have much social mobility. And before someone comes in with “my auntie Barbara was poor and she pulled herself up by the bootstraps and is now a multimillionaire CEO”, at a societal level it doesn’t work like that.

Not saying poor people shouldn’t have kids, just that financial stability/opportunities is something that should be considered as it will influence the rest of their lives.

Of course poverty is a massive problem. My point was that there are other issues children experience besides lack of money. Money might help you to deal with issues like an unhappy marriage, illness, bereavement, but it doesn't prevent them.

I'd add that my response to children living in poverty wouldn't be recommending that certain people don't have children.

When I was a kid (in Northern Ireland) I knew several families in which the Mums looked after their Mums or Mother in Laws more or less full-time (who had rooms in their houses).

(On one comical occasion I was the first up in the morning after an A levels party (parents away) and was accosted by the Granny who asked (told) me to make her a cup of tea).

It was possible because the Mums did not work outside the home, or worked part-time in fairly undemanding jobs.

I can't think of anyone like that now.

I find the 'don't expect children to be there in your old age' argument really bizarre. In my world it's normal for people to see their elderly parents regularly. They might not live with them but they definitely watch out for them and help them with day to day life. Yes there are people who cut themselves off from their parents but IME that's much rarer. The much more typical situation is for parents and their grown up children to have a decent relationship that means something and it's perfectly normal to expect that to happen. Yes, you shouldn't rely on it or assume it's a given, but IME elderly people who have children are the ones who have ongoing support from people who are younger than they are and are invested in their welfare. Elderly people who don't have children generally have friends of their own age, who typically can't provide support in the same way.

I know a few people who care for their mums. One who quit her job and claims benefits. The other who is self employed and can do her work around her mum's needs. Both single and without children at home.

Lots of people in my life care for the parents. My own parents are fit and healthy and in fact my mother cares for her mother, who's 93. We live closer to my PILs and FIL has dementia so I anticipate that MIL will move in with us once FIL goes to a nursing home. It won't be easy but that's part of being family in my view.

@GratitudeGrump Yes, at 50 I have loads of friends who are supporting their parents in various ways, even if they live in a different country, thanks to technology. Estrangement or abandonment is rare IME. By my age, the parenting role is often reversed!

One of my mum's friends, who's 70, just lost her husband. They have no children. She has great friends, including my mum, but the fact of the matter is that she's alone in her grief - her own parents are dead and she has no siblings so she has no immediate family left whatsoever. Everyone is trying to support her, but if she had an adult child then they would be managing the situation together and that child (assuming no issues) would keep an ongoing eye on her. My mother is struggling to know how to help because, as a friend, it's just not the same sort of situation.

I disagree, having been incredibly skint and now doing fairly well.

Unfortunate events can happen to anyone. But it's a lot easier to deal with any stress when you aren't also dealing with the stress of being skint. I also think you underestimate just how much money can help.

Bad job, bad manager, job loss? I've got savings. Long term illness? I can release equity and downsize. If my care takes too long or I'm not happy with the treatment I have money to go private. Not happy with my marriage? I can go anytime with my own savings and find a job anywhere in the country, all while receiving top notch therapy. Death will come for every family but it doesn't always come with ash cash.

Even things like the fact I can book a holiday anytime and any emergency like the car breaking down or washing machine breaking would have 0 effect on the holiday. Because I have savings.

I've had to watch every penny and spent years putting things back on the shelf. Now I can spend £60 on wine and cheese on a whim.

My life is better in every measurable way now than it was when I was skint. And I would have hated to have the stress of a kid while dealing with the stress of unstable housing, shit jobs, or the leccy running out.

Artificial Intelligence (AI). I don't think this is a reason people are not having children (along with climate change) but it is something to be worried about. I wonder if we will need fewer people to do fewer jobs and everyone else will be fighting for scraps.

I agree I was so stressed as a child from poverty. It impacts your whole life going forward and most things are easier and enjoyable without that stress.

I think we need more of your perspective in this thread. My husband grew up in poverty too. It was a large factor in why we did not have kids earlier.