To think that we need to have an honest conversation about euthanasia and care costs

[Noras]

So there are some interesting stats published by the Gov about the cost of cares the end of life and whatever way you look at it, it’s expensive. Obviously the most expensive is hospital care at about £400 to £500 per day but also care in care homes is high.Most of that could be avoided with an injection.

I have watched both my parents die and I have been left traumatised by it. My mother died from starving to death due to dementia in a non nursing bed with no pay relief other than paracetamol. She was clutching the sheets and morning for 14 days. My father died of the most gruesome cancer. We nursed him at home but we still had one 24 hour carer at the end paid for by CHC ( he was plus 2 for eg the commode and washing hence we still did it).

Whilst my parents were dying I could not bear to let them go but now after several years I think ‘What on Earth was that?’ With the benefit of hindsight I regret every mouthful of food that I fed my mother. She did not even know who I was and was in a different World but yet she was my beautiful mother.

I regret every time that I carefully measured morphine for my dad because I did not want to give him an overdose

I am haunted by the prospect of getting dementia. I am scared sick of cancer and dying from it as the pain meds never kept uo with the pain. When we just had the pain patches they were always too weak and we were always behind the race to keep up with the pain. When we got the end of life kit, as a relative I was always too scared to give ( I think ) enough morphine to top up the pain patches so my dad would he in agony. I could not bear to let my dad go - it was so painful,

So this is the question; Do we need to grow up and really think about euthanasia?

Over two years of my life were consumed by the impending death of my parents ( I still visited and cared for my mum in a care home despite it costing my dad several hundred pounds weekly as I wanted to care for her).

@XenoBitch Sometimes they heavily sedate with cancer, you don’t know it’s going to happen. Once that syringe driver goes in you have no control- this was our experience, can’t speak for others. It would not have been what my father wanted. I think he would’ve preferred to see it out, however painful. He was never consulted.

My aunt on the hand had dementia, she was happy, loved her food and thought she was in a hotel, still recognised us. She died of pneumonia, just fell asleep and never woke up.

That’s a very unpleasant post

I was the one that said it and I was describing what I want should it happen to me. Why shouldn't I while in full capacity, make a decision and it be respected for when I don't have them.

Same with my mum. She had ovarian cancer and was in a hospice. One day I broke down to the nurses and said I couldn’t bear to see her like that any more in such pain. They were so supportive.

That same evening I had a phone call from the hospice asking if it was ok to up her morphine. I thought it was odd as they never rang me before about medication. She died in the early hours.

I am sure they gave her just slightly too much morphine and I will be forever grateful to them. It was horrific seeing her like that.

Because you can also not have capacity and still want to live.
Or are you saying that once you have declined to the point that you no longer recognise family, the HCPs involved in your care should show you your signature from before, and insist you are killed.... even if you are then saying no?

There’s the odd, almost romanticised anecdote of a beautiful death- I’ve never experienced it.

IMO, my cat had the best death possible with terminal cancer at 16. We gave her her favourite dinner before the vet came. The vet gave her a sedative injection; then when she was out of it, the second injection. She didn’t feel a thing after the first injection. She had no fear, we could see.

Infinitely better death than DF with terminal cancer; or MIL, who stopped eating and was asking repeatedly to go home. It wasn’t my decision - it was up to her DC and none of them would look after her at home, for however long it took. She refused to swallow the antibiotics, in her last few days.

Cost shouldn’t come into; but we should be able to make an advance directive, when we have capacity, if we want for euthanasia in certain circumstances. From what I heard, pre Shipman, doctors used to increase the morphine, knowing the patient would die from an overdose rather than the cancer?

but that is the logical endgame of these arguments about euthanasia and the value of different peoples lives. You can't have v good critical thinking skills if you can't see that !

Why do these discussions always use other people as the example? Surely the only decision is in respect of your own life?

So if you yourself agree you would voluntarily end your life prematurely to avoid care costs consuming the inheritance of your little darlings, or would elect to be euthanised immediately after some horrible diagnosis whilst you could still choose to do so and drink the sedative, then that's really the truth about whether you really believe in voluntary euthanasia or not.

One option is less aggressive treatment when people are nearing the end of their natural lifespan. Pneumonia used to be known as the "old lady's friend" as you were poorly for a day or two, then slipped into unconsciousness and died.

Now a frail elderly lady with dementia will receive antibiotics and recover (but not 100%, each illness will take a toll). Antibiotics, flu jabs, covid jabs, statins, blood pressure tablets, oxygen will all keep us alive a bit longer, but ultimately we will be on a downwards trajectory and deteriorate with each illness.

I think as I'm nearing the end of my natural lifespan I'd like to refuse vaccinations and antibiotics for infections. If I was elderly and had moderate dementia I'd rather die of pneumonia after a short illness now, rather than receive treatment and survive long enough to get severe dementia, be bed bound, confused and incontinent, and then die of flu two years later.

I can differentiate from someone who has a terminal illness and someone who is disabled. Dementia is a terminal illness - it’s the brain shutting down. Cancer is a terminal illness that can lead to an excruciating death.

.ASD is not. People don’t die from ASD.

So yes my critical thinking skills are fine.

I’m asking difficult questions about who carries out euthanasia. Often these conversations can be very black and white but people need to consider the grey areas. It’s all very well stating with 100% certainty that euthanasia should be legal but we need to think about who will action it, in what settings and in what context. And that includes difficult questions that extend beyond agree/disagree.

It has to be applicable tp all age ranges, and to those who no longer want to live with life-limiting conditions
Otherwise, if it's just those of 'x' age or ''x' condition, you are in Soylent Green territory and confirming everything the nay-sayers believe

My MIL died contorted in pain, having been barely conscious for some time. Cancer. I am in favour of an injection frankly.

Also, the financial side of it is relevant. I would prefer me and DH to get an injection rather than to have to have our house sold and used to pay for us to be cared for an an awful state. I want my dc to share the proceeds of our house, not for it to be spent on us being cared for in an atrocious state.

Look to Canada if you want to see what happens when assisted suicide meets provision of care and financial considerations. We need to be careful what we wish for.

I feel the same. I do not want to be in pads having my arse wiped by strangers and my life prolonged and they don't even know what kind of music I like.

I always thought I'd get to a certain point and then go and find the local needle exchange and see if a heroin user will accept £100 from me to fix me up and then leave me to get on with it.

Or be like Lemmy, get a diagnosis, accept no treatment, carry on for as long as I can and then die two days later when. can't carry on any more.

I feel there are too many people alive and I am happy to get off when my time comes. I appreciate it if others don't feel the same, but I do feel that way. Those that agree, we can all do it and those that don't agree don't have to do they.

I was being deliberately provocative. I think we’re actually on the same page when it comes to QOL/value decisions.

Another one of the very real risks is that legalising euthanasia gives government an excuse/get out clause when it comes to proper funding of health and social care, particularly at end of life.

I would rather die at 80 with my mind still fully intact, able to remember my children, still living but before the pain of a terminal illness took hold etc, than be kept alive for 15 more years with no quality of life and not knowing who anyone was around me. I think many people would be happy to sign a declaration while compus mentus that they're happy to go that way, painlessly, should they get very ill and have no prospect of quality of life.

People with ASD have been euthanised in the Netherlands….

but people on here are suggesting that premature babies should be left to die because they might cost a lot in terms of care. The next logical step is to say that those who already exist are costing too much and some on here are already talking about children in special schools having no quality of life and costing a lot in care provision. Join the dots !
In Canada the mentally ill, homeless and those in need of social care are being offered euthanasia . This is not fantasy ! there is increasing concern that people are being pressured into it when they have no terminal condition at all.
this is the slippery slope I fear because I have 2 children who fall into the v complex needs category. And where does it all end ?

Your connection between money and killing someone old is scary.

YABU

YABVU, and are letting your tragic experiences cloud your judgment.

Care is expensive? So what, we knock everyone on the head at the age of 80? Are you out of your mind? Do you know how dangerous and dystopian this sounds?

What happened to your dear mother was horrific, and I’m truly sorry - it should not have happened - but what we need to sort out is pain relief, proper funded hospice care and decent palliative care.

Not euthanising people like you do the family dog, because it’s apparently too hard to solve the care crisis and or give enough morphine.

If I am at the point where I don't know who I am, what's going on, am incontinent and tube fed, then I absolutely want to be euthanised to save money. Either because it's my children's inheritance or because it could be used to save the life of someone who actually has a chance of recovery.

Many Drs would probably be willing to administer a lethal injection to a clearly capacitous person who was terminally ill if the law allowed it.

Putting the morphine dose up to hasten death in a person who is clearly in the last few days/ hours of life happens all the time and is covered by the doctrine of double effect ie if your intention is to relieve pain and it has the effect of shortening the persons life you have not killed them.

I think this was done for my mum when she was dying of cancer in the hospice. It was what she and all her family wanted and was swiftly actioned with an increase in the syringe driver. She lost consciousness after that and died a few hours later. She had a good death and I can honestly say she was not really suffering for more than 10-20 minutes despite liver failure and being riddled with bone and lung mets.

Not so many would be willing if the person was not terminally ill and I think very very few if the person lacked capacity and appeared in the moment to be objecting.

OP, you are 100% not being unreasonable.

This is potentially outing, but I'm hoping anyone I know IRL won't read as far as my post...

I've unfortunately witnessed too much death first-hand.

My beautiful mum died when I was 16 - she was only 40. Undiagnosed cardiomyopathy. It was sudden. She was originally pronounced dead at 8pm, only for her heart to restart an hour later. I was told it was an extremely rare occurrence and that she was almost certainly brain dead and had to sign off the DNR. She held on until 4am.

As traumatic as that was and always will be, I stand firm that she had the kindest death of those I've been around for. She was unconscious and hopefully pain free and it was quick.

It was the years leading up to it that were cruel and would have been a case for euthanasia (not that I would have supported it at the time - my mum was all I had!). She had no quality of life. Her spine had basically crumbled from osteoporosis and I was caring for her by myself. She literally could not move from her bed unaided and was so depressed from the pain of it. Her last few years of life were awful and isolated for her, but at least her death was quick and there was no time to dwell on the idea that she was dying. It was over in a few hours.

Since then, I've witnessed several more and frankly it would have been kinder to have let them slip away, rather than watch them suffer and ultimately have a "bad" death.

Currently, I'm supporting the only woman who was kind enough to step up and fill my mum's proverbial shoes. She fell ill only a few months ago, before being diagnosed with an aggressive brain tumor and given only weeks. She is currently receiving end of life medication at a very good care home, but it is simply not equipped to meet her high level of needs. For some ungodly reason, she can't be placed on hospice because of a points system.

The last few weeks have been absolutely horrific. She's gone from being the most independent person I know to effectively losing all of her functions, but still being very much aware. She has been scared beyond belief and only now the end of life medication is beginning to take effect is she more relaxed.

Hopefully for her sake and her daughter's it won't be much longer, but I hate that she has had to go on like this.

I understand the arguments against it.

There would absolutely need to be safeguards upon safeguards in place, but you wouldn't subject an animal to the same torture, so why must we continue to suffer if we can make that choice ahead of time whilst of sound mind?