To think that we need to have an honest conversation about euthanasia and care costs

[Noras]

So there are some interesting stats published by the Gov about the cost of cares the end of life and whatever way you look at it, it’s expensive. Obviously the most expensive is hospital care at about £400 to £500 per day but also care in care homes is high.Most of that could be avoided with an injection.

I have watched both my parents die and I have been left traumatised by it. My mother died from starving to death due to dementia in a non nursing bed with no pay relief other than paracetamol. She was clutching the sheets and morning for 14 days. My father died of the most gruesome cancer. We nursed him at home but we still had one 24 hour carer at the end paid for by CHC ( he was plus 2 for eg the commode and washing hence we still did it).

Whilst my parents were dying I could not bear to let them go but now after several years I think ‘What on Earth was that?’ With the benefit of hindsight I regret every mouthful of food that I fed my mother. She did not even know who I was and was in a different World but yet she was my beautiful mother.

I regret every time that I carefully measured morphine for my dad because I did not want to give him an overdose

I am haunted by the prospect of getting dementia. I am scared sick of cancer and dying from it as the pain meds never kept uo with the pain. When we just had the pain patches they were always too weak and we were always behind the race to keep up with the pain. When we got the end of life kit, as a relative I was always too scared to give ( I think ) enough morphine to top up the pain patches so my dad would he in agony. I could not bear to let my dad go - it was so painful,

So this is the question; Do we need to grow up and really think about euthanasia?

Over two years of my life were consumed by the impending death of my parents ( I still visited and cared for my mum in a care home despite it costing my dad several hundred pounds weekly as I wanted to care for her).

''Better a day too soon, than too late.''

This was exactly what my vet told me after I had my best friend put to sleep. She had never had anyone come back and say they felt they had done it too soon. But many who felt afterwards they left it too long, myself included many years ago.

As said earlier in the thread, I want quality over quantity.

I've never met a doctor or nurse that didn't feel as you do about aggressively keeping people alive at all costs. It is generally speaking relatives who have unrealistically high expectations of recovery, who push for their loved one to receive the most aggressive treatment, to stay alive the longest, and who perceive a withdrawal of aggressive and unpleasant treatment as "giving up", "failing" and "killing" the loved one. Obviously this does then interact with medical culture to perpetuate an interventionist approach.

I'd be very surprised if there aren't many within health services who could do the job, even as part of their healthcare remit. Just because you clearly are against it, doesn't mean that everyone else feels the same.

JockTamsonsBairns canI ask whst "dignity in dying" is please?

what ? Is that a good thing in your eyes ? Genuine question

This already happens to a certain extent doesn't it? We were given the choice of whether to give my DGM more antibiotics for pneumonia or let nature take its course. We declined further treatment and she died in the next couple of days. She was 98, immobile, doubly incontinent and non-verbal after a stroke a year or so before combined with vascular dementia. I absolutely think it was the right decision and would do it again. She wouldn't have wanted to live like that and I hope someone would make the same decision for me

How do you think being required to undertake euthanasia would impact HCP’s currently employed in our health service?

Withholding and withdrawing treatments are very different to actively bringing about death through a deliberate act are they not?

The thing is not only do we not have assisted dying but we don't even have access to painless suicide. If I get an awful terminal diagnosis I'm going to have to risk some dodgy internet site (and some cold hard cash) to get hold of drugs that would see me painlessy pass.. Whilst we can't make easily available lethal medication a thing (we already have intolerably poor mental health care and high levels of suicide. So that's a terrible idea) if I've been judged of sound mind I'd like a safe painless option to self administer at a time of my choosing thanks. Otherwise you're all removing my autonomy and self determination and interfering in something that's really no one else's busines.

Thank you for this - I’ve just added my name on their petition page.

I told the kids that when doggie has to go we let her . It isn’t about us and our wants but what is best for her and they better do the same for me…

No conversation about euthanasia should centre on care costs. It should be potential quality of life, ways to ensure valid consent and how far bodily autonomy should extend (into death?)

Would be a good thing if the money saved by using euthanasia teams rather than funding palliative care was used to build new schools instead? Or host the World cup?

Would it need to be a HCP? Who performs them in Switzerland? Perhaps have similar here.

Do you think palliative care works in all cases? That all deaths could be pain free? I’m struggling with your thinking. Or do you think that death will be painful and we just need to accept it?

I agree, but obviously it’s something people need to sign up for before they get to a stage of terminal or limited life. I wouldn’t want decisions being made by relatives. That could lead to people making decisions on their own needs and agendas, rather than in the interest of the patient.

My mother with advanced dementia, age 94, is given vaccinations against covid, flu, pneumonia. Why? For her to die of pneumonia (they used to call it 'the old person's friend') would be kinder and gentler than her pissing on the carpet in her confusion - then her crying because she realised she had done 'something wrong'.

Well we could always poll current healthcare professionals and find out.

Christ, of all the ways to cut costs.

What proportion of bed days in PICU are children with life limiting conditions? Adult patients with similar life expectancies would not be considered for ITU.

My thoughts too.

I am horrified to read that some people think that sedating someone against their will, and euthanising them is acceptable. It is totally different to withholding treatment.
And it does not really matter if you had some sort of advance directive when you were of sound mind. Someone with dementia to the point they no longer recognise family etc can still very much want to live.
It is disturbing.

My mother did an advance decision which basically said that should she develop lack of cognition ie dementia or a stroke then medical treatment should be withdrawn bar painkillers.
This meant that when my Mum had a stroke whilst in the final stages of Alzheimer's, as her POA for Health & Welfare, I was able to push for palliative care.
I also pushed for strong painkillers - the nurses kept stating that it would speed up her death so I went for it.

We were self funding & the care & an annuity that would pay 50% of her care until her death.
Total amount was £250k for the annuity & £450k for her care so I wasn't concerned about inheritance - her care was more important.
I have an advance decision just in case I need it.

are you taking the piss? You think we should off people to save on care costs to host a world Cup ?
You have perfectly proved the argument of the slippery slope !
Next people will be happy to see a return to the gas Chambers and cleansing society of anyone considered a drain.

Other people on this thread have expressed that premature babies shouldn't be kept alive because of the cost of long term disability care.

You said your son is in receipt of disability benefits. Let's hope people don't start suggesting euthanasia for him because of the cost too.

After all, we wouldn't want to spend money on disabled people.

Sarcasm

https://yougov.co.uk/health/articles/27240-public-and-healthcare-workers-support-euthanasia

Among Doctors

https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/ethics/end-of-life/physician-assisted-dying/physician-assisted-dying-survey

Obviously sufficient people to carry out patients request.

The process of death was never supposed to be easy. It's a scary thing to think of but suffering before the soul leaves the body is normal. The body is supposed to gradually shut down. This is how its always been since the beginning of time. Its nothing new. It probably helps relatives process the upcoming finality of the death of a loved one.

It's unnatural to cut this process out. Euthanasia will no doubt be abused if it is legalised and I can see old people being coerced into bumping themselves off to please their relatives.