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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that we need to have an honest conversation about euthanasia and care costs

722 replies

Noras · 18/08/2024 17:41

So there are some interesting stats published by the Gov about the cost of cares the end of life and whatever way you look at it, it’s expensive. Obviously the most expensive is hospital care at about £400 to £500 per day but also care in care homes is high.Most of that could be avoided with an injection.

I have watched both my parents die and I have been left traumatised by it. My mother died from starving to death due to dementia in a non nursing bed with no pay relief other than paracetamol. She was clutching the sheets and morning for 14 days. My father died of the most gruesome cancer. We nursed him at home but we still had one 24 hour carer at the end paid for by CHC ( he was plus 2 for eg the commode and washing hence we still did it).

Whilst my parents were dying I could not bear to let them go but now after several years I think ‘What on Earth was that?’ With the benefit of hindsight I regret every mouthful of food that I fed my mother. She did not even know who I was and was in a different World but yet she was my beautiful mother.

I regret every time that I carefully measured morphine for my dad because I did not want to give him an overdose

I am haunted by the prospect of getting dementia. I am scared sick of cancer and dying from it as the pain meds never kept uo with the pain. When we just had the pain patches they were always too weak and we were always behind the race to keep up with the pain. When we got the end of life kit, as a relative I was always too scared to give ( I think ) enough morphine to top up the pain patches so my dad would he in agony. I could not bear to let my dad go - it was so painful,

So this is the question; Do we need to grow up and really think about euthanasia?

Over two years of my life were consumed by the impending death of my parents ( I still visited and cared for my mum in a care home despite it costing my dad several hundred pounds weekly as I wanted to care for her).

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
VotesForWomen · 18/08/2024 22:23

Not euthanising people like you do the family dog, because it’s apparently too hard to solve the care crisis and or give enough morphine.

To be fair it's not a care crisis or lack of morphine that causes me to opt to euthanise my dogs when the time comes. It's because their suffering has outweighed their quality of life. It's just easier to decide on behalf of an animal than a human.

XenoBitch · 18/08/2024 22:28

Starlingexpress · 18/08/2024 22:05

I’m asking difficult questions about who carries out euthanasia. Often these conversations can be very black and white but people need to consider the grey areas. It’s all very well stating with 100% certainty that euthanasia should be legal but we need to think about who will action it, in what settings and in what context. And that includes difficult questions that extend beyond agree/disagree.

In Switzerland, it is the patient who carries it out. That is part of the terms of going there... you have to be able to do it yourself. The whole thing gets filmed to make sure this happens.
So in effect, it is assisted suicide, not euthanasia. To me, euthanasia is something that is done to you, and assisted suicide is something you do yourself (with help via being given the means to do so).

ThePure · 18/08/2024 22:30

Dogs don't have capacity and they never have had or will do so it's clear that any decision on their quality of life is their owners to make.

The comparison is often made but I hate it and find it fatuous. People are not the same as dogs. The vast majority of people either have capacity to decide about their own quality of life or they did have at one point. No-one has the legal right to decide about someone else's quality of life and opinions can vary widely on what is a good quality of life for a person to have.

flapjackfairy · 18/08/2024 22:31

I know I will be shot down in flames but anyway just going to say it...people are not pets! We do not treat people the same way we treat dogs or cats or other animals You are able to lock a dog or cat in a crate if you so desire, you can leave it in ' prison ' to go on holiday and put a lead around its neck and pull it along .
We do not have the same rights over human beings . So we cannot just apply the same rules over euthanasia to people .
If it was a straightforward case of people making their own decision well that is one thing but within a few posts people were on about making decisions for those who cannot make it for themselves and that is OK if it is a dog you are deciding for but not a baby, child or old person.

NewYearNewJob2024 · 18/08/2024 22:37

I'm really saddened that some people think premature babies shouldn't be given a chance of life. In fact, I don't think saddened is strong enough a word...horrified, maybe a better choice.

flapjackfairy · 18/08/2024 22:40

ThePure · 18/08/2024 22:30

Dogs don't have capacity and they never have had or will do so it's clear that any decision on their quality of life is their owners to make.

The comparison is often made but I hate it and find it fatuous. People are not the same as dogs. The vast majority of people either have capacity to decide about their own quality of life or they did have at one point. No-one has the legal right to decide about someone else's quality of life and opinions can vary widely on what is a good quality of life for a person to have.

cross posted !

Starlingexpress · 18/08/2024 22:43

ThePure · 18/08/2024 22:17

Many Drs would probably be willing to administer a lethal injection to a clearly capacitous person who was terminally ill if the law allowed it.

Putting the morphine dose up to hasten death in a person who is clearly in the last few days/ hours of life happens all the time and is covered by the doctrine of double effect ie if your intention is to relieve pain and it has the effect of shortening the persons life you have not killed them.

I think this was done for my mum when she was dying of cancer in the hospice. It was what she and all her family wanted and was swiftly actioned with an increase in the syringe driver. She lost consciousness after that and died a few hours later. She had a good death and I can honestly say she was not really suffering for more than 10-20 minutes despite liver failure and being riddled with bone and lung mets.

Not so many would be willing if the person was not terminally ill and I think very very few if the person lacked capacity and appeared in the moment to be objecting.

The doctrine of double effect is an ethical argument and not a legal or evidence based medical approach. It can not be used in a court of law to justify ending someones life.

Regardless of some of the anecdotal experiences, analgesic and sedative requirements at end of life are assessed and titrated according to clinical and prescribing guidance as well as clinical assessment of the patient and their medication requirements up to the point of assessment.

The benefits of having specialist palliative care teams involved are that these assessments are carried out frequently, and titrations of medications are appropriate and drugs prescribed so that they can be given as often is required, and that patients snd family members recieve appropriate advice and support to use medications including opioids to effectively manage symptoms.

But we live in a society where that type of care is not universally available or accessible and that is a travesty.

flapjackfairy · 18/08/2024 22:44

Starlingexpress · 18/08/2024 22:09

I was being deliberately provocative. I think we’re actually on the same page when it comes to QOL/value decisions.

Another one of the very real risks is that legalising euthanasia gives government an excuse/get out clause when it comes to proper funding of health and social care, particularly at end of life.

phew! sorry missed the irony ! x

CeruleanBelt · 18/08/2024 22:51

Noras · 18/08/2024 21:47

That’s a very unpleasant post

I didn't see you calling out the sickening post about letting premature babies die. You're the one who has said people who are expensive to look after could be taken care of with an injection. They're your words, not mine.

If you think my post was unpleasant, maybe you should read yours again and think about how you come across.

Gogogo12345 · 18/08/2024 22:55

helpfulperson · 18/08/2024 17:59

What about all the young people who live in similar situations - no awareness of the outside world or quality of life? are we going to Euthanise those as well. Or stop all the efforts to keep very premature babies alive, which lead often to a requirement for lifelong very expensive care. It's a slippery slope and I'm not sure I trust us not to abuse it.

Why would someone want to keep their child alive if they were going to have no quality of life? Woodies it benefit?

Starlingexpress · 18/08/2024 22:58

Gogogo12345 · 18/08/2024 22:55

Why would someone want to keep their child alive if they were going to have no quality of life? Woodies it benefit?

At what point in a childs life do we start measuring QOL and what criteria is used?

CeruleanBelt · 18/08/2024 23:00

Op Your initial post was focused on the financial cost of providing care.

It just strikes me that you think society should have a discussion about the cost of caring for people, but any suggestion that it might affect you or your family, suddenly it's "unpleasant".

Well your unpleasant thread has definitely made me think twice about supporting assisted dying - clearly there's too many ways it can be abused.

And at least one person in Canada has been euthanised for being autistic, so be careful what you wish for.

ForGreyKoala · 18/08/2024 23:01

helpfulperson · 18/08/2024 17:59

What about all the young people who live in similar situations - no awareness of the outside world or quality of life? are we going to Euthanise those as well. Or stop all the efforts to keep very premature babies alive, which lead often to a requirement for lifelong very expensive care. It's a slippery slope and I'm not sure I trust us not to abuse it.

Just what I was going to say. It is a slippery slope, and the cost of care should not come into it. If we are prepared to spend a fortune to care for the young then the same should apply to the elderly.

OP I'm sorry for what you have gone through. My DF died of cancer in a hospital and his pain was under control the whole time - he just quietly slipped away.

Toetouchingtitties · 18/08/2024 23:07

Why are some of you complaining about people with ASD choosing to end their own life in countries where it’s legal? Surely if the person has decided they don’t want to live anymore - for whatever reason - they should be allowed access the same end of life choices as anyone else the legislation allows.

Just because you find self determination too hard to comprehend, doesn’t make it wrong.

Witchlite · 18/08/2024 23:10

Starlingexpress · 18/08/2024 20:24

And who makes the decision when, you are categorised as a stage 6 dementia, but you appear quite content, spend your day singing nursery songs and cradling a baby doll that you believed was your baby, were cared for by gentle and well trained staff who managed your continence and personal hygiene issues with dignity and respect?

And yet your son, watching the equity of your home being swallowed up in care home fees announces that ‘now is the time’ for euthanasia. Talk me through how you envisage that process? Which of those staff that you have grown to trust will be the one to hold you down whilst you are injected?

But the whole point is, it will be my choice. I will have made the decision while I had capacity. Nobody should be forced into it and controls would need to put in place to stop coercion.

Not every child or family member is grabby - some just care. Some care homes are absolutely dreadful.

My mother died of Alzheimer’s last month. An uncle died of it two days later. 2 other siblings had already died. If I could have legally spared my mother the last year, I would have done. If my mother had known what was going to happen to her, before it happened and had had a way out she would have taken it.

what a load of twaddle over “singing nursery songs … gentle and well trained staff. Rather, staff with too many people to care for and no time to notice that pads were sodden with wee.

we were lucky and could afford one to one 24/7 care. Not everyone can. It was still absolutely horrendous. There are some diseases that people should not have to live through!

Bannedontherun · 18/08/2024 23:12

I have to say this is a very useful post. I wavered a bit with Esther Ranzen but having read this i am firmly against killing people, even if they want you to. There is far to many risks involved.

Gogogo12345 · 18/08/2024 23:13

Noras · 18/08/2024 19:44

Don’t we to a certain degree already do some debatable things by allowing people to have really late abortions after amniocentesis?

How is that morally not objectionable as that person could have enjoyed life?

Again I have no ability to determine that especially in my circumstances. My instinct is that I would have kept the baby but I don’t know as I have never been in that situation

My DD had a termination for medical reasons at 25 weeks. Was something like abouta 3% survival chance and if that happened would involve open heart surgery at birth( depending on condition) and many more surgeries. Also being on constant oxygen due to lung issues. What life would that have been for the child

Gogogo12345 · 18/08/2024 23:15

Starlingexpress · 18/08/2024 22:58

At what point in a childs life do we start measuring QOL and what criteria is used?

See my later post

Lizzie67384 · 18/08/2024 23:15

Starlingexpress · 18/08/2024 21:30

Would be a good thing if the money saved by using euthanasia teams rather than funding palliative care was used to build new schools instead? Or host the World cup?

Host the World Cup?!?!? What!

Bannedontherun · 18/08/2024 23:16

Abortion is a separate and unrelated issue, a feotus is occupying a persons body so the pregnant person has ultimate rights to make an always difficult decision.

Starlingexpress · 18/08/2024 23:17

Witchlite · 18/08/2024 23:10

But the whole point is, it will be my choice. I will have made the decision while I had capacity. Nobody should be forced into it and controls would need to put in place to stop coercion.

Not every child or family member is grabby - some just care. Some care homes are absolutely dreadful.

My mother died of Alzheimer’s last month. An uncle died of it two days later. 2 other siblings had already died. If I could have legally spared my mother the last year, I would have done. If my mother had known what was going to happen to her, before it happened and had had a way out she would have taken it.

what a load of twaddle over “singing nursery songs … gentle and well trained staff. Rather, staff with too many people to care for and no time to notice that pads were sodden with wee.

we were lucky and could afford one to one 24/7 care. Not everyone can. It was still absolutely horrendous. There are some diseases that people should not have to live through!

It would be great if the thread could continue without resorting to rudeness and dismissal of the experiences of others.
I’m sure you didn’t mean to insult the many health and social care staff who are able to provide safe and good quality care for people in both general and specialist settings.

Lizzie67384 · 18/08/2024 23:18

Noras · 18/08/2024 20:41

I stated a fact taken from the Gov website. I began with that only as I had just read the Gov report. When I first read it I was shocked that some accountants had worked out the cost per death for the Gov with detailed stats. So I began my post with factual statement and n9 expression or argument

Also this week I was having long thoughts about my future as I approach an important birthday. I then reflected on my parents awful death and the impact it had on my family.

I then suggested that we needed a debate.

During this debate I have clearly expressed what I would like for myself only.

But what’s that got to do with euthanasia? You clearly see some sort of link between state funded care for the elderly and euthanasia?

Witchlite · 18/08/2024 23:27

Starlingexpress · 18/08/2024 23:17

It would be great if the thread could continue without resorting to rudeness and dismissal of the experiences of others.
I’m sure you didn’t mean to insult the many health and social care staff who are able to provide safe and good quality care for people in both general and specialist settings.

That was my experience of the care workers. Completely overworked to the point that they couldn’t care for the people they were supposed to.

I could equally say you insulted all sons… your experience is different to mine. I have little faith that the care given is good in a lot of instances. Whereas I would trust my son to make the right call.

Note, I have very recently had to intervene over bad care with 4 relatives, in 4 different care settings.

Firefly1987 · 18/08/2024 23:27

Loopytiles · 18/08/2024 18:11

Good palliative care is not available to many in the UK; and even the best palliative care can’t take away severe pain and many other awful symptoms.

Agree. They always say we can get your pain under control and keep you comfortable but it's bollocks. Maybe in the US they do as they're more willing to give meds over there. Not saying we should follow their system with the huge problems they have but at least they won't leave you suffering like over here. Our local hospice wouldn't take my dad or grandad, didn't have room or something. I don't know where else you get palliative care-we certainly weren't offered it, just left to it. My dad was on two types of morphine by then but that still wasn't enough. It's just not that strong when you're in agony. Intravenous is the only thing that works well enough I think. My grandmother was apparently giving my grandad morphine injections in the 50s so he actually probably got better pain relief than my dad 60 years later.