To think that we need to have an honest conversation about euthanasia and care costs

[Noras]

So there are some interesting stats published by the Gov about the cost of cares the end of life and whatever way you look at it, it’s expensive. Obviously the most expensive is hospital care at about £400 to £500 per day but also care in care homes is high.Most of that could be avoided with an injection.

I have watched both my parents die and I have been left traumatised by it. My mother died from starving to death due to dementia in a non nursing bed with no pay relief other than paracetamol. She was clutching the sheets and morning for 14 days. My father died of the most gruesome cancer. We nursed him at home but we still had one 24 hour carer at the end paid for by CHC ( he was plus 2 for eg the commode and washing hence we still did it).

Whilst my parents were dying I could not bear to let them go but now after several years I think ‘What on Earth was that?’ With the benefit of hindsight I regret every mouthful of food that I fed my mother. She did not even know who I was and was in a different World but yet she was my beautiful mother.

I regret every time that I carefully measured morphine for my dad because I did not want to give him an overdose

I am haunted by the prospect of getting dementia. I am scared sick of cancer and dying from it as the pain meds never kept uo with the pain. When we just had the pain patches they were always too weak and we were always behind the race to keep up with the pain. When we got the end of life kit, as a relative I was always too scared to give ( I think ) enough morphine to top up the pain patches so my dad would he in agony. I could not bear to let my dad go - it was so painful,

So this is the question; Do we need to grow up and really think about euthanasia?

Over two years of my life were consumed by the impending death of my parents ( I still visited and cared for my mum in a care home despite it costing my dad several hundred pounds weekly as I wanted to care for her).

Agreed

It can't be about cost, but quality of life and patient's wishes absolutely.

My dad was dying for two years of cancer. In the days before his death he said ‘I hope god takes me soon’. The following day he said he couldn’t believe what a bad day the day before had been and thank god today was better and could we put on a bit of music for him. Two days before he died he said he wished he had more time left but he felt this was all going to end soon but he wanted to fight it and ‘just because I’m in my 70s and haven’t all my marbles (he had brain cancer and lung cancer) doesn’t mean I’m ready to bow out!’ He went into a coma that night.

My friend is a nurse and she says the amount of people who change their minds about dnrs they’ve set up is substantial. And there’s the problem. I think of the majority of us aren’t going to be in a position to know what we want until it’s too late.

I'm afraid when I see "care costs" I actually read "disappearing inheritance" because people care less about that when it is State funded.

There is a discussion to be had about living wills made while still able to decide, but as others have said, completely separate to any financial implications.

ETA I saw my relatively young husband die after great pain and I dread to think what it would have been like had I not been there 24/7 to advocate for him.

I think we, as a country, do need a conversation about keeping very premature babies alive at all costs. They often can spend their first year of life in hospital and then remain heavily reliant on extensive care, both physical and medical, for the rest of their lives. We have a mentality where we place quantity of life far above quality. Sometimes it would be far better to let these babies go.

I favour assisted dying for those who can consent to it. And I can see that I would rather die than live several years in severe dementia, spending my child's inheritance But people with severe dementia can't consent to it, so how does assisted dying help in those cases?

You could argue people could consent to it in advance, but that's not how consent works in any other scenario. Consent is only meaningful if it's consistently and actively given. As soon as the person becomes incapable of giving it or of revoking it, it becomes meaningless.

You also just can't link assisted dying to finances. Otherwise you end up with people using it to end their lives due to them feeling obliged to save money for their families. Even if no one is pressuring them directly or even if they're actively begging them not to do it, they might still feel it's the moral choice.

I also think that active euthanasia is one thing, but there should be another debate about the level and intensity of medical intervention once someone has full blown dementia.

You can already do that via an advance directive. That needs to be better publicised.

My thread said the exact opposite. I was literally spooning food into my mother’s mouth when she could not recognise it as food. I could not bear to see her go. Even now I have her photo near my bed.

In general people can’t bear to let go. At no stage did I think ‘hurry up and doe this is costing too much…’

Most right thinking people do not want to bump off their parents for money - it’s just not likely. I think that is overstated. Most people can’t let go and struggle with their parents’ deaths.

Agree very strongly with this and it is less hypothetical than you think.

Canada now offers patients who cannot afford private care the option of euthanasia. Doctors actually promot it.

There was a discussion about bringing in a bill for Downs Syndrome people to be offered it.

There have been a few interesting threads about it on Mumsnet over the years.

I'm selfish. I don't care about anyone else. I just want the ability to decide when I die.

I don't want to live with advanced dementia, advanced cancer, motor neurone disease or any other of illnesses that result in an awful death.

I saw my mother and grandmother die awful deaths. I do not want that for me.

I also worked in a hospice for many years. I'm not confident that death is pain free in these places. I don't want that for me.

I'm in my 40s and healthy but I have had lots of discussions with my loved ones about scenarios in which I don't want to be treated.

It's my choice but I'm being denied my choice. That's not fair in my book!

I also give monthly to Dying in Dignity. I want the choice. For me!

Totally agree we need a conversation and action regarding this. But trying to keep the church out is going to be impossible. I have tried to take matters into my own hands (but unfortunately it doesn't relate to dementia, which is what I'm really scared of) by having a DNR. It took about half an hour of discussion with GP (about 7 years ago) as she said they don't normally do them for people under 75. At the time I was 56. But it gives me some comfort that I won't be kept alive by artificial means when my time comes. My sons will be pleased to see me go!

Loud mouths for disagreeing with you? Looking at most things that have passed through parliament start off as a good idea then snowball. Examples being women's rights and joining the EU.

As someone who's chronically ill, I would be terrified that it will evolve into a limit you can be given before being labelled as futile.

For those who would like to be able to express their wishes in advance e.g. to
not be admitted to hospital with an acute event in certain circumstances but for care to focus on comfort instead - this already exists. Have a look at https://www.resus.org.uk/respect

Good palliative care is not available to many in the UK; and even the best palliative care can’t take away severe pain and many other awful symptoms.

If you mean what you say in your first sentence why are you persisting in bringing cost into the discussion? Because you are doing your argument no good at all. One of the strongest arguments against assisted dying is the fear it will be become state sanctioned murder of the inconvenient and costly. By insisting on returning to the financial benefits you are merely perpetuating that.

Well you might not but with human nature being what it is there are plenty who would.
And your thread title absolutely links assisted dying with the cost of care !

Agree - With both my parents getting dementia ( and a wife family history ) I know my risks are high and want to spare myself the indignity of it and my family the cost .

End of life care needs vast improvement.

Euthanasia needs to be discussed and debated.

But linking this to care costs and suggesting this as a cost cutting measure is truly disgusting.

The answer is simple. We should be able to consent to it while we still have capacity so that if we lose capacity in the future we can be assisted to die.

Thanks, I had a feeling something like that existed but couldn't remember what it was.

I think it's repellent that you are talking about this in terms of costs, although I agree there is a good argument for Assisted Dying in some cases.

I'm sorry you went through such a trauma and I hope you can get some help to process it.

Totally agree with this.

I also support Dignity in Dying.

We need to separate the discussion from costs…that’s quite sick actually and yes it is a slippery slope.

Absolutely this^^.

Just to balance out the other examples on here which are really horrific, my parents both died really good deaths in their eighties. One peacefully at home. And one thanks to a fantastic hospice where they were treated with professionalism, dignity and love in the purest sense of the word.

Dignity in dying doesn't automatically mean euthanasia. It can mean excellent hospice care.

My mum was a palliative care nurse. She often told me there's a good way to die and a bad way and you want to do whatever you can to avoid the bad way 💐 I feel so bad for her that after supporting so many people in the their final hours, she died herself in a bad way, and she knew what was happening too. It will always haunt me.