To think that we need to have an honest conversation about euthanasia and care costs

[Noras]

So there are some interesting stats published by the Gov about the cost of cares the end of life and whatever way you look at it, it’s expensive. Obviously the most expensive is hospital care at about £400 to £500 per day but also care in care homes is high.Most of that could be avoided with an injection.

I have watched both my parents die and I have been left traumatised by it. My mother died from starving to death due to dementia in a non nursing bed with no pay relief other than paracetamol. She was clutching the sheets and morning for 14 days. My father died of the most gruesome cancer. We nursed him at home but we still had one 24 hour carer at the end paid for by CHC ( he was plus 2 for eg the commode and washing hence we still did it).

Whilst my parents were dying I could not bear to let them go but now after several years I think ‘What on Earth was that?’ With the benefit of hindsight I regret every mouthful of food that I fed my mother. She did not even know who I was and was in a different World but yet she was my beautiful mother.

I regret every time that I carefully measured morphine for my dad because I did not want to give him an overdose

I am haunted by the prospect of getting dementia. I am scared sick of cancer and dying from it as the pain meds never kept uo with the pain. When we just had the pain patches they were always too weak and we were always behind the race to keep up with the pain. When we got the end of life kit, as a relative I was always too scared to give ( I think ) enough morphine to top up the pain patches so my dad would he in agony. I could not bear to let my dad go - it was so painful,

So this is the question; Do we need to grow up and really think about euthanasia?

Over two years of my life were consumed by the impending death of my parents ( I still visited and cared for my mum in a care home despite it costing my dad several hundred pounds weekly as I wanted to care for her).

My mum had dementia too and for the last five years of her life she wasn’t living she was simply existing. I am absolutely terrified that the same will happen to me and it consumes a lot of my thoughts in my 60’s.
So I agree op we need a proper, sensible, unemotional discussion instead of forcing people to live in despair because we are too scared to say the unthinkable.

We need legal euthanasia or assisted suicide in the UK as a matter of urgency (preferably both). Death is absolutely not the worst thing that can happen to someone, and we all need to understand this.

Sounds like your dad didn't have good palliative care unfortunately. Someone ( a professional )should have been overseeing his pain control properly. Sorry you had to go through that.

I am in favour of assisted dying, massively in favour of it actually. But I think we completely need to separate it from talk of costs. As in other countries it should be on the patients wishes not money, otherwise that's a very slippery slope.

I am a carer for the elderly, and also pay a monthly subscription to 'Dignity in Dying'.

I absolutely agree Op. It's time to address this.

I'm sorry you went through that 💐

Discussions do need to be had around euthanasia. I don't think the financial side should be of any relevance to it though.

In your mother's case then she wouldn't have had the capacity to consent to it either, in a lot (maybe even most) cases the people who would need it the most wouldn't be in a position to consent.

I'm not really sure what the answer would be, but it definitely needs a real discussion.

I think it’s a slippery slope. Once we start equating costs of end of life care, are we asking those who don’t want to be euthanised to justify why we should spend the money on keeping them alive, compared to June down the road who decided to euthanise at an early stage? Will the govt go on a cost cutting mission and start closing down palliative care facilities on the basis that if people want end of life care, they need to agree to be euthanised at a certain point? Or will families be expected to fund it if they want end of life care for their relative?

It sounds utterly ridiculous but so many utterly ridiculous things have happened that I wouldn’t rule anything out.

I completely agree.

Having watched my MIL spend over a decade with Alzheimer's in a care home I would agree. I do not want to live like that, and would choose death. She was 96 when she finally died and was blind, non verbal and doubly incontinent. I wouldnt keep an animal like that.

100% agree but the usual loud mouths will come out and say we cannot do anything because unscrupulous people will try and use the laws to get their inheritance early. My DM had a horrible death and someone was making an awful lot of money out of her because she was self funding.

PLEASE - what has happened to the Esther Ranzen campaign?

What about all the young people who live in similar situations - no awareness of the outside world or quality of life? are we going to Euthanise those as well. Or stop all the efforts to keep very premature babies alive, which lead often to a requirement for lifelong very expensive care. It's a slippery slope and I'm not sure I trust us not to abuse it.

Of all the considerations in this debate, the cost of keeping someone alive shouldn't come into it.

From what you describe neither your mum or dad had a good standard of palliative care and that is absolutely wrong and heartbreaking. Good palliative care can improve things a lot and I believe this should be everyone’s right.
Legalised euthanasia, especially in the situation where a patient lacks the capacity to decide is terrifying to me - who decides whose quality of life is good enough / bad enough to live or die? On what basis? What about children born with significant disabilities? Even where the patient does have capacity to decide there’s evidence that patients can feel pressured into euthanasia. Even more so if keeping costs down is a primary concern. I’ve no desire to prosecute people who decide to travel overseas in search of euthanasia type options as long as they aren’t pressured into this but the practical consequences of legal euthanasia are very frightening. I’d much rather fund palliative care better to ensure that both patients and their loved ones are treated appropriately when curative options aren’t available.

Yes, this absolutely

I think it would be useful to have honest conversations about both of those issues. But separately. The moment you link them you are stepping over a line that should not be crossed where human life is concerned.

We absolutely need euthanasia legalised in the Uk. The way we expect people to exist in the last few weeks/months of their lives is nothing short of cruelty. I have a relative with dementia and they are simply existing and would be absolutely horrified if they could understand what has become of them. I wouldn't let one of my animals suffer like it but im expected to watch a relative suffer until the bitter end!

This, with my gran. Too many years lying in bed wasting away and wearing nappies, oblivious to everything. She weighed under 5 stone when she died, and having been very much a twin set and pearls kind of lady, she’d have been utterly horrified. You’d be prosecuted for keeping a dog alive in that condition.

It’s time.

the problem is that your thread title alone is why I am not in favour of euthanasia. How many old or sick people would be pressured to agree to that injection ( as you put it ) because of worrying about the cost of their care. And how many family members who were concerned about missing out on their inheritance would be willing to apply that pressure.

Yes the discussion should be on quality of life not on cost.

I think there is this irrational though not to want to let go because you cling to those you love so much. Gosh, I was virtually clinging to my dad’s coffin when it was about to be lowered.

I don’t want my kids to go through that and think that a quick exit is preferable.

However the cost of all this care is crazy. How many more teachers or nurses could be employed to look after the younger generation? In the meantime the nursing homes are full of people who are the living death. I helped with a party at one last Christmas - it was so sad and painful to see people just sitting there confused. I actually think that all these health techniques to make us live longer have just fuelled a care home gold bonanza.

Perhaps if all people had to write a care plan or care wish at aged 70 for future events ?????

I think we will have to think about quality of life over quantity. Not because of the cost but simple kindness and mercy. I think people should be able to, for example, create a living will that says 'if I have dementia and develop another life threatening condition, make efforts to make me comfortable but do not intervene to save my life'

As I have been saying for years, when my pets have no quality of life and are constant pain that I can't alleviate, I make the horrible but compassionate decision to end them down. Humans should have the option of the same.

I see people saying we shouldn't bring cost into it but I'd be furious if the little I have was wasted on me sitting in a care home dribbling when it could provide a home for my DC. It'll be Switzerland for me at a cost of £20k rather than losing the lot. Just pray I can balance the timing so I'm still able to make the decision early enough.

the most expensive is hospital care at about £400 to £500 per day but also care in care homes is high.Most of that could be avoided with an injection.

No. On the basis of what you have said here, none of the other stuff makes it reasonable. Because people will be euthanised to save money.

Yes, we absolutely do need a change of laws relating to euthanasia and assisted dying and generally we need realistic, grown-up conversations about death.

It's the last taboo, and so many people seem unable to get past the idea that life must be preserved to the bitter end no matter how horrific it is.

I'll be 76 in a few months. I'm very lucky that I'm pretty healthy at the moment, and though it's not something I dwell on, it certainly worries me that the end of life could see me in agony.

I want to be able to make the decision over my death, or have my children and doctors make the decision if I'm too ill to decide.

When my grandad was dying we are sure the nurses gave him ‘too much’ morphine which eased his passing and we are so grateful for it. I’m sorry you had these experiences OP, we definitely need to be more compassionate when it comes to end of life care. We wouldn’t do it to our pets so why our parents?

We watched my physically healthy gran rot away and eventually die of dementia. The last 6 months she didn't have much quality of life and was so confused.

My dad has said that unless euthanasia becomes legal in the UK he wants me to take him to Switzerland if he becomes like his mum!