To think that we need to have an honest conversation about euthanasia and care costs

[Noras]

So there are some interesting stats published by the Gov about the cost of cares the end of life and whatever way you look at it, it’s expensive. Obviously the most expensive is hospital care at about £400 to £500 per day but also care in care homes is high.Most of that could be avoided with an injection.

I have watched both my parents die and I have been left traumatised by it. My mother died from starving to death due to dementia in a non nursing bed with no pay relief other than paracetamol. She was clutching the sheets and morning for 14 days. My father died of the most gruesome cancer. We nursed him at home but we still had one 24 hour carer at the end paid for by CHC ( he was plus 2 for eg the commode and washing hence we still did it).

Whilst my parents were dying I could not bear to let them go but now after several years I think ‘What on Earth was that?’ With the benefit of hindsight I regret every mouthful of food that I fed my mother. She did not even know who I was and was in a different World but yet she was my beautiful mother.

I regret every time that I carefully measured morphine for my dad because I did not want to give him an overdose

I am haunted by the prospect of getting dementia. I am scared sick of cancer and dying from it as the pain meds never kept uo with the pain. When we just had the pain patches they were always too weak and we were always behind the race to keep up with the pain. When we got the end of life kit, as a relative I was always too scared to give ( I think ) enough morphine to top up the pain patches so my dad would he in agony. I could not bear to let my dad go - it was so painful,

So this is the question; Do we need to grow up and really think about euthanasia?

Over two years of my life were consumed by the impending death of my parents ( I still visited and cared for my mum in a care home despite it costing my dad several hundred pounds weekly as I wanted to care for her).

This is terrifying, and exactly why I would never support assisted dying.

From the above article:

'Assisted dying in Canada was initially considered a last resort for terminally ill patients suffering from incurable pain. But in the space of just a few years, euthanasia has been made available to pretty much anyone who is struggling with an illness or a disability. Even Canadians facing homelessness and poverty are feeling compelled to end their lives, rather than ‘burden’ the authorities'

It is ridiculous Euthanasia is not legal.

Everyone should be allowed to choose when and how they want to die.

I'm going through this right now as my DM has an inoperable brain tumour and is in a care home. She's only 69 and it was all very sudden and intense.

She's now on the end of life medication and is very sleepy, but that's after two weeks of her sobbing that she just wanted to die because she was starting to lose all function in her arms and hands. Her legs have been gone for over two months, she can barely see, her speech is basically unintelligible.

All she wanted was to go peacefully, and now hopefully she will. But she spent the last couple of weeks of consciousness crying and begging to end it all, in total distress most of the time. I don't think that's fair on any of us.

There are many children is similar difficult situtations around the Country. If all young carers stopped delivering care the health service would be completely swamped.

£400 to £500 per day but also care in care homes is high.Most of that could be avoided with an injection

This sentiment is the central argument against euthanasia and a reason why I don't believe parliament will move fast (or ever) to support it.

I think assisted dying has a place but it must be driven by patient choice with decisions made when the patient is firmly of sound mind.

it is not a discussion to be had next to discussions about finances otherwise where does that end? People.with disabilities? People with chronic conditions? Criminals? I have a child with type 1 diabetes. He costs the NHS/society a small fortune but he can expect to live a long life. If we make the assisted dying debate about the cost of aging and.the cost of care, we might as well just say ethuanise everyone over the age of 50.

Yes you had a point as my dad wanted to fight it and we wanted to fight it with him - but oh it was horrendous. I think after Christmas he gave up. He died in February, the last few days curled in a ball despite the morphine.

I don’t want my kids to ever see my like that.

And why is that a bad thing? With unlimited money, we could keep pretty much everyone alive for ever. Plumb them into life support and never turn them off. But we don't, because it would be bloody ridiculous and we don't want to pay for it. Quite right too.
There are better uses for public money than forcing people to not die.

I've long said to DH if I don't know who he is any longer then stop visiting me and move on with your life. If I had the option for doing a living will and being euthanised at this point then I'm all for it.

Your daughter's A level scores are irrelevant when you decide to talk about what lethal injections could save financially. It was your job to make sure she was not put through that in the middle of her exams.

Her First from a good university will expunge any failings in her A levels, BTW.

@DaniMontyRae that same argument is valid for every prisoner doing life, especially the mentally ill ones. Then we've got the ones coming out 60+, what's the point of them? But then most would vote for a quick injection for pedophiles.
@Noras have you looked into what the prison system costs?

I think not as much active euthanasia is needed as just letting people go instead of forcing them to live.

My grandmother suffered with dementia for ten years. I'd say the first five years after diagnosis she still had some moments of joy in her life. The last five she was always miserable and confused and particularly the last year she had zero quality of life.

She had multiple bouts of pneumonia and other illnesses but every single time she got given antibiotics and other medicines and she pulled through. In the end she died because she picked up a virus in the hospital where she was taken to investigate whether she had broken her arm or not (luckily not). She was in such a state that she could not even indicate whether she had pain.

I really wish one of those earlier pneumonias had taken her.

This was in the Netherlands by the way, where euthanasia is already legal and people are more open talking about this sort of thing.

Does the same apply to benefits claimants? Those on PIP?
Where do you draw the line?

Unfortunately, while I think the idea is a decent one. It's a slippery slope. Once it's in, it can be expanded to other areas. Then you get people who can't get care for their mental health being offered it. Whose who cant pay feeling obliged to ease the burden on their families. While we have governments ran by rich men. We just can't go there.

I am against euthanasia...I can see the arguments for it and don't disagree with them but the potential of abuse/coercion is just too great imo.

My son was not exactly going to be looked after by a random stranger at the time and sadly I could not saw myself in half. It’s easy to criticise when you are not in the midst of a crisis. I had 2 high needs people to care for - both wanted me or DD there.

I fully support assisted dying but that should be done from a medical POV with an individual who can fully understand what is involved. It should never become a cost saving measure.

I couldn't agree more. I agree with euthanasia as something a person might choose - either at the time or via advance wishes for a degenerative illness. But talk of costs feeds into my greatest fear: that people will feel pressured into choosing it when they don't want to by their families or by society at large. Already lots of people seem to resent older people for their homes etc and talk of how they've had unfair opportunities, are a drain etc. I also think people often lack empathy because they just can't imagine themselves getting old.

People on PIp like my son has a quality of life,

People dying are in extreme and awful pain.

I see people saying we shouldn't bring cost into it but I'd be furious if the little I have was wasted on me sitting in a care home dribbling when it could provide a home for my DC. It'll be Switzerland for me at a cost of £20k rather than losing the lot. Just pray I can balance the timing so I'm still able to make the decision early enough

I could not agree with this more.

What a ridiculous thing to say. You have no control over either and it's quite hurtful to suggest people will do. I'm surprised your mother said this.

I am not sure where I stand but I think that all this needs to be at least discussed with clear and level heads.

I have an interesting observation from a country with a very well funded health care system which does allow assisted dying.

A doctor of our acquaintance has told me that he can no longer "ease" his long-standing patients in to death with an extra shot of morphine as he once did, using his judgement, because once you make assisted dying official, it doesn't just happen spontaneously as a matter of course, it becomes two distinct, clear pathways of either opting in or out. They even have two different sets of doctors for each purpose. (There obviously has to be strict clarity around these protocols for safety reasons and so the system isn't abused.)

Anyway, this doctor told us that nowadays, since the instigation of assisted dying, some of his patients die in pain and have a much more prolonged death because the authorities have had to draw a line as to the amount of morphine he is permitted to use, and the limit obviously has to be set on the side of caution, so often isn't enough to ease pain and discomfort. And he said that, if he the doctor did use extra morphine to put people out of their misery, he would be in danger of breaking the law and going to prison.

So be careful what you wish for everyone please!

It’s interesting to me that people say there never should be a link between choosing life and costs.
there is already. There’s a limit to the nhs funding and choices are being made. This is why elderly care is shit. Babies and children are prioritised (rightly imo) and there simply isn’t the money to save everyone.
my view is that with an acceptance of the reality of limited resources a focus should be made on quality not quantity of life. So prioritising pain relief even at the risk of causing an early death.

the “patients wishes” aspect is so complicated though because after a certain point, they won’t be deemed capable of giving consent. You could go on consent take before they declined, but that wouldn’t fly because you wouldn’t know if they’d changed their mind