To think that we need to have an honest conversation about euthanasia and care costs

[Noras]

So there are some interesting stats published by the Gov about the cost of cares the end of life and whatever way you look at it, it’s expensive. Obviously the most expensive is hospital care at about £400 to £500 per day but also care in care homes is high.Most of that could be avoided with an injection.

I have watched both my parents die and I have been left traumatised by it. My mother died from starving to death due to dementia in a non nursing bed with no pay relief other than paracetamol. She was clutching the sheets and morning for 14 days. My father died of the most gruesome cancer. We nursed him at home but we still had one 24 hour carer at the end paid for by CHC ( he was plus 2 for eg the commode and washing hence we still did it).

Whilst my parents were dying I could not bear to let them go but now after several years I think ‘What on Earth was that?’ With the benefit of hindsight I regret every mouthful of food that I fed my mother. She did not even know who I was and was in a different World but yet she was my beautiful mother.

I regret every time that I carefully measured morphine for my dad because I did not want to give him an overdose

I am haunted by the prospect of getting dementia. I am scared sick of cancer and dying from it as the pain meds never kept uo with the pain. When we just had the pain patches they were always too weak and we were always behind the race to keep up with the pain. When we got the end of life kit, as a relative I was always too scared to give ( I think ) enough morphine to top up the pain patches so my dad would he in agony. I could not bear to let my dad go - it was so painful,

So this is the question; Do we need to grow up and really think about euthanasia?

Over two years of my life were consumed by the impending death of my parents ( I still visited and cared for my mum in a care home despite it costing my dad several hundred pounds weekly as I wanted to care for her).

Where does that stop? Premature babies, complex disabilities, serious mental health issues, people with chronic illnesses, the suicidal, those who don't want to be a burden...

Where are you drawing a line and who gets to decide the worth of your life?

You more or less can. People do it every day.

What you're really talking about is a system where you hand a third party the responsibility of killing you. The existence of such a system naturally carries the possibility for the third parties to take responsibility for the timing of that decision - to authoritatively decide they should kill you now.

If that sounds like murder, it's because it is in all but name. What kind of people do you think would be most readily available for such duties? How considerate of the individual's potentials would you expect providers to be, when they're being paid per death?

You should all stop ignoring the posts above about Canada. It's the principle in action. Canadians with mental conditions like depression have already been "assisted to die" - there's a moratorium on that now, which only means it's being further debated in Parliament. Likewise, the Canadian health authority sent reps out to leaflet homeless people with the contact details for "assisted dying". Some tenants received the leaflets with their eviction notices.

What we need isn't legitimised murder; it's much better healthcare.

Brilliant post.

I don’t agree. Just because you don’t like my opinion does not mean you can just pretend it does not exist.

I can still hear what a friend of my Father said not long before his death to cancer. Lying in immense pain. No amount of morphine touching it.

His words 'you would get the jail if you kept a dog like this'.

It is perfecly true and a horrible thing for the person and their remaining family.

I think that people making policy need to actually look at people dying with cancer and dementia. I helped a friend whose mother was dying by sitting with both of them and it was the same trauma - she stopped eating. The last few days were just awful. All I could think about was how glamorous and stylish she had been only 3 years beforehand. It was awful seeing the pain on my friend’s face. Her daughter was also traumatised.

The wife of a friend of my parents had early onset dementia and is now non responsive, unable to move or be aware of anything - he is paying thousands per week for her nursing home where she is Just kept alive and turned every few hours - there is literally no point in life there

I want to be euthanised in certain situations but it should never be linked to the cost of carers and nursing homes.

Ok for all those who think an advanced directive is the answer:

A woman makes a valid advanced directive saying she wishes to be euthanised if she has a diagnosis of dementia, loses capacity and had a poor quality of life

-Who decides when the moment has come given that the lady now lacks capacity?

• She is kicking and screaming 'no no I don't want to die' and has to be restrained to have the needle put in. Does the Dr still go ahead now? Against he currently expressed (although in capacitous) wishes

This isn't completely theoretical. We ran up against this with Covid vaccines for people with dementia. Those who lacked capacity and did not resist were given in their best interests especially of family supported and said they would have wanted but we drew the line at restraining people although it was arguable in their interests because it really is hard as a Dr or nurse to physically restrain people to give treatment and goes against all your instincts.

I am not sure you'll find many Drs willing to euthanase people who cannot consent or worse are actively resisting whatever the advance directive says.

I actually do believe in the right to die. I am open to the idea of assisted dying, implemented with utmost caution and rigorous controls.
However your posts OP have actually made me think how very far we are from ever having this as an option.
There's actually something quite chilling about the blatant way you talk about saving money. The use of 'euthanasia' rather than assisted dying with its clear implications of something done to a person rather than for or with that person.
Your focus on how awful it is for the family, the costs to your dad. Perhaps you've just done a poor job of making your case, but the thought of someone with your views being part of a decision whether I had sufficient quality of life (in you opinion) to be permitted to continue to live, fills me with horror.
And yes, I know you will say it would be the person's own decision. But if people knew their children feel they shouldn't be a burden or deplete the inheritance, you can see how people would feel they should do 'the decent thing'.

@LoquaciousPineapple
You also just can't link assisted dying to finances. Otherwise you end up with people using it to end their lives due to them feeling obliged to save money for their families. Even if no one is pressuring them directly or even if they're actively begging them not to do it, they might still feel it's the moral choice.

Have you considered that it might actually be a valid moral choice to end your life to save the money for your children, rather than it going to a private care home owner?
Everyone dies.
Many people won't face up to this, either for themselves or for their loved-ones.
There is nothing inherently moral or good about staying alive, or keeping people alive, beyond a certain point.

My DF is currently has dementia. He was in a care home but now he's had to be sectioned in a hospital as he was too aggressive which is completely out of character. He said to me years ago that he never wants to end up in a home and to put him out of his misery if he ever ends up like that. He would've 100% of wanted to die way before the point he's at now. Its shit that he has to suffer until his death, as horrible as it is to say I only hope for his sake its soon

Hes often distressed, incontinent and has now clue who anyone is and can barely string a sentence together.

Where does it end? Would we allow assisted dying in cases of depression? Long term but not fatal diseases?

I get the point you're making, but for people with long term but not fatal diseases, who are we to not "allow" someone to end their life? Who are we to say to someone who is in their right mind, but doesn't want to continue "no, live with it, we don't allow you to choose. It's not up to you".

but there were people given DNRs without the parents knowledge weren't there during the pandemic . That was a disgrace. And the Liverpool pathway was just barbaric !

As a parent with 2 extremely medically fragile children living through Covid was terrifying because it was basically made clear that should they get it and need a ventilator etc they would not get one and we shouldn't expect much in the way of support or treatment at all . My brother in law with cancer was told openly that he wouldn't get any treatment if he contracted it and let's be honest thousands of care home residents were seen as collateral damage throughout the pandemic. They didn't make efforts to stop it tearing through care homes so these judgements are already being made . Scary !

My mum’s cousin suffered strokes and died of TIA’s dementia etc. My mother has vascular dementia, my brother has been ill with a TIA.

I have opened up the post partly because I don’t want to have the same death as my mum and my kids to suffer that. Also I would rather want to save money and help my SEN son live a good life. The cost of care is crazily high for private payers,

At least I need a right to choose.

Yes but often in the NHS they are behind the pain because they are under-funded and under-resourced; it's not always out of caution.

And treating a person with a "curative" objective is completely different to treating someone who is in the final stages of a terminal illness, or extreme old age.

Edited to say: I am very sorry that happened to your dad.

This!
And this is the reason I have difficulty supporting any policies which expediate death. Money will always come into it.

But an individual needs to be able to consent for their to be any sort of moral standing for assisted dying.

dementia is horrible. I have seen it first hand and have grown up with a family member working with people with dementia- but someone in the throws of dementia can’t consent to dying so it would be immoral to do so.

I can see an argument for an advance directive being used in some cases but that would need to be very very carefully done and certainly not done on the basis of cost.

I don't agree with the Canadian system - it should never have been opened up beyond terminal illness - of course healthcare should be the priority but where the illness is terminal or significant and progressive such as dementia where there is no cure the system should be there with appropriate frameworks and safeguards in place - it should not be privatised with financial incentives.

I watched my wonderful Grandma die, she was placed on the then Liverpool Pathway and was basically starved/dehydrated to death, there was no end of life medication. When I went to visit her for the last time she was like a tiny baby bird in a huge bed, it was horrible and cruel. My PIL are both in a nursing home, one with Parkinsons, the other with Type 1 diabetes, dementia, has had multiple TIA's, has a replacement heart valve and is in multiple organ failure. They get fed when they are told to eat, get a shower when given one, get up and get put to bed at times to fit in with the home, which is lovely and has caring staff. but they have no quality of life. MIL is vacant, neither of them know what day of the week it is or what month it is. We were called to the hospital at her last admission because she had aspirated, they said she was going to die and we sat with her for two days, they gave her huge amounts of antibiotics and she eventually recovered but is now even more confused than she was previously and has to be moved with a hoist. She has a DNR and would undoubtedly have passed if they had not administered the antibiotics and other drugs. They are not living they are simply existing and it is incredibly sad.

Well they are perfectly at liberty to end their life if they choose to aren't they. If they have capacity and the ability they can make that decisions and don't need anyone else to do.it for them so this is a moot point.

I am in favour of heavily regulated, instigated by the person impacted, assisted dying.

I belive in situations that are terminal and degenerative the person who is ill should have the option.

I understand why you've brought the cost argument as that might be the sort of thing that would make the government listen, but from a personal point of view the costs should have nothing to do with it. It should be all about the quality of life for the person impacted and what they want to do.

I totally agree, having cared for a relative through end of life for cancer. She wanted to die at home, and the palliative care support was truly crap. The NHS is decimated and it was so traumatic. We fought and fought for the best care we could, but the nurses just weren’t available. I still have flash backs. We paid for private care for her final hoirs and it made all the difference.

Surely they can choose to take their own lives.

If someone said to me ‘Do you want to love with numerous tumours in your body snd the resulting pain?’ Part of me would think no.

Also,part of me would feel bereaved at never seeing my DH and DC again and would want to cling to every drop of life. Death is the worst form of bereavement because in that last moment you realise that you lose everyone you love. I have almost died from a scary incident so for a brief while experienced that as I was attacked.

I also don’t want to see my children destroyed with the care needs and the ongoing grief.

It’s very tough .