JKR being uncharacteristically quiet

[Jdugsgsgwyd]

Anyone else noticed since the news that JKR is being sued by Imane Khelif she's been very quiet, unless I'm mistaken she's hasn't tweeted at all in about a week.

and hasn't responded at all to the legal action being taken against her. This is very unlike her, I'm thinking she's been advised by her lawyers to keep quiet. Anyone else think she might have put her foot in it this time?

Gender is a made up concept though. Sex isn’t.

And yet, the use of cis removes the ability to discuss the needs of female people who are those with bodies formed around the production of large gametes.

You keep making these arguments that directly can be mirrored back to the harm being done to female people. And you have not yet come up with any argument that supports female people as a unique sexed body category.

What word can be used for female people who have the sexed body that is formed around the production of large gametes, regardless of the status of production, meaning they do not have testes or testes tissue?

It's great you are so specific and careful in the use of "cis".

It's clear you only use it within genderist frameworks.

So why are you asserting that gender critical feminists, who by definition exist outside the genderist framework, must agree that IK is "cis"?

I can agree a genderist would label IK as "cis" in the same way I can agree a Catholic would label abortion as a sin, because I understand the basic precepts of these belief systems and I can see those statements are consistent within their respective frameworks, but I would agree with neither statement as fact because the labels only have meaning within those belief systems.

(Oh BTW, it's "gender assigned at birth" not sex. Sex is set at conception and observed, sometimes (very very rarely but sometimes) incorrectly, at birth. This is what I mean about mixing up the two incompatible frameworks. In genderism, the gender assigned at birth may not match the later gender identity. In science, the sex is fixed at conception but may be wrongly observed and later corrected based on further physical observations. In genderism, the gender assigned at birth is a fixed fact against which the gender variance, "cis", "trans" or whatever, is later defined. In science, the sex at birth is an observation that can be corrected. A later correction to the observation of sex is not the same thing as a genderist transition. While IK, taking IK's statements about their identity in good faith, could possibly be claimed to be "cis" in a genderist framework, this does not somehow make her "the same" as the billions of female people, including plenty of sportswomen and most likely even some of those IK has fought, who genderists presumptively label "cisgender" sinply because they have never professed a trans identity.)

I’m going off the evidence from herself stating she was born with a vagina, and the fact her passport says so. Also the fact that the IOC cleared her to compete under a women’s category. That’s all the evidence I need, what kind of proof do you need and feel you’re entitled to!?

High testosterone doesn’t equal male.

Yes Flirts

I think that these two boxers have really shown how the language that some people have tried to coerce others to use, is flawed. It is only based on philosophical belief and thankfully, we live in a country that allows people to reject anothers philosophical belief.

The language never fit the purpose. Cis was a term that was taken and expanded in use that it never worked for because it was supposed to be 'precise' but it has now been proven to have never been accurate.

I’m afraid you are wrong. We know IK has XY chromosomes and testicles as otherwise IK could not produce male levels of testosterone. IK’s own coach has confirmed this (see linked image). IK was almost certainly born with female-like genitalia because of the way this condition affects the foetus, hence the late diagnosis. But this does not mean they have a vagina. I don’t care if IK wants to be known as a woman socially. That’s their choice. And it seems the diagnosis came as a shock (though you wonder why IK’s team weren’t a bit more curious about the lack of periods alongside a masculine body type). However, the advantages of male puberty mean that it’s unfair that they compete against women in sport. Nobody would be discussing IK’s body or hormones unless they were doing this.

Can you post the links that show the levels of testosterone that Khelif has please?

Because we can assure you that there is a gap between the levels of a female with 'high testosterone' which is around 5.5 nmol/L and anything over this is a very unhealthy female person who is gravely ill. Male people of Khelif's age don't have testosterone levels that overlap with this. Male people with working testes start at over 7 nmol/L. Caster Semenya had readings of 21 nmol/L.

You seem to be ill informed.

Not ‘high testosterone’. Testosterone that’s normal for males. Way outside the female range.

IK is not claiming IK qualifies for the male category so whether IK produces testosterone as a "normal" male or not isn't relevant.

Since IK is claiming IK qualifies for the female category, what is relevant is whether IK's testosterone production is normal (ie within the boundaries for their sport) female.

Which we already know from IK's coach it isn't.

There is no overlap between the female and male testosterone levels

I’m going off the evidence from herself stating she was born with a vagina, and the fact her passport says so.

My passport certainly doesn't detail my genitalia, though I can't speak for an Algerian one. Maybe they do? 🤷🏼‍♀️

Hyperbolic flimflam.

Thanks spanna. I am on my phone.

For those reading, please note that the Semenya line is the line that males with the DSD 5ARD were required to suppress their testosterone to after the Rio 2016 Olympics. Semenya was recorded as having testosterone levels of 21 nmol/L.

No where near the ‘female range’ and yet was described as a female with high testosterone.

However, that label is completely false. Male people with the DSD known as 5ARD have healthy MALE testosterone levels.

Right - so again from your own rules many people (me and in fact everyone I know) have a sex that was determined at birth and no gender identity. Just a sexed body.

So my experience isn’t covered in ‘cis’ language. It is covered if you talked about female experiences or that of women though.

You’ve also said that you wouldn’t assume anyone’s gender identity so how does a collective term ‘cis’ work if you haven’t actually asked others. If a trans person is trying to compare differences between then and those they deem ‘cis’, the pool can only include those who self-identify as cis - otherwise you’re making assumptions again. It’s a pretty small pool of people in that respect so again, completely meaningless.

You’d still need a term to include all women in some way (the female, cunty kind obviously), would you not?

Christ alive I don’t have the time for this.

I’m not particularly attached to the language of sex “assignment”. If you want to use a different word- fine by me. Sex “registered” , sex “observed”, “birth sex” all fine by me. What’s important is that we acknowledge that sometimes people’s sex ( “observed” , “assigned”, registered) at birth does not always match their gender (and/ or their body) - trans and cis , sex diverse, sex variant, is part of the language that enables this understanding.

It’s hilarious (and once again profoundly hypocritical ) that you equate me to a catholic ascribing “sin”. All I want to do is describe things. You are the ideologue who wants to introduce value judgements like “correctly” or “incorrectly” or “corrected” - you want to do this so you can police peoples experiences. In your mind there are “correct” ways of being and “incorrect” ways of being. I don’t subscribe to such religiosity. I’m not interested in judging whether someone’s experience is “correct” or “incorrect”, I’m simply interested in describing it.

Dawkins has deleted all the tweets associated with IK, along with his facebook page.

He didn't delete his FB page. FB did.

@CountZacular Exactly. Can't have it both ways. Either "cis" only applies to people who have specifically accepted that as describing their identity, in which case given that the vast majority of people do not define themselves as trans or cis makes it useless for the stated general purpose of describing "the experiences of sex and gender diverse people [for which] you need to have language that distinguishes between a person‘s sex assignment and their gender", or you do consider cis to be a catch all term for everyone who is not trans and thereby presume to define the gender experience (including the expereince of not expereincing an internal, innate gender) of people for them.

The actual solution to all of this, the thing that sorts it all out, is to roll back from trying to redefine the language of sex to label gender (which let's face it was only every done to support otherwise clearly unjustified cross sex demands based on feelings of gender) and just have brand new different words for the inner feelings of identity. If we'd labelled the inner feeling shared by trans- and (self identified) cis- women as , oh I don't know, "lammity", and the people who share it "lamules" no one would ever have suggested that a lammity man should be in women's sports and women's spaces, and IK would be clearly understood as a man with a DSD who thought he was a woman for a long time but is not. And while he might possibly (but who knows) also be a lamule, it would have had no bearing on his sex as a man, not would the fact he previously believed himself to be female somehow justify including him in women's sports now.

What’s important is that we acknowledge that sometimes people’s sex ( “observed” , “assigned”, registered) at birth does not always match their gender (and/ or their body)

if you want to eliminate the word “gender” because it upsets you so, we can do that too.

What’s important is that we acknowledge that sometimes people’s sex ( “observed” , “assigned”, registered) at birth does not always match their identity, and/ or their body

Ok. Please post where Khelif has stated they have a vagina.

The passport says 'female'. It does not specify that a person has a 'vagina'.

The IOC cleared them to compete because the IOC has maintained for 25 years that they will allow males with differences of sex development who have passports that state 'female', even if this is incorrect, to compete in the female category.

You don't seem to have much understanding around this issue. Here is some background. I doubt it will change your mind, but it will be useful for those reading along.

ust to recap how we got here

1999 - From what I gather, from the Nature article posted up thread, is that a campaign group successfully convinced the IOC in the late 90s to prioritise inclusion. Because of what they position was the human rights violation of these male athletes with DSDs suffering indignities during testing and the outcomes of that testing.

So in the 1999 the OIC removed testing. 82% of female athletes wanted testing to remain.

Ie. My understanding is that the group campaigned that any male with a Difference of Sex Development that had been incorrectly registered as 'female' on their passport was to never be sex tested by the IOC again and allowed to compete as if they were female, regardless of whether they had gone through male puberty.

www.nature.com/articles/gim2000258.pdf?origin=ppub&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=commission_junction&utm_campaign=CONR_PF018_ECOM_GL_PHSS_ALWYS_DEEPLINK&utm_content=textlink&utm_term=PID100045542&CJEVENT=f4d4c8630a0411ed831b01a80a1c0e11

2004 - Then in 2004 they allowed male people who surgically removed their testes to compete in female competition. Because once you allow one group of male people in, you must equally allow the other in or you are discriminating against transgender people.

https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-approves-consensus-with-regard-to-athletes-who-have-changed-sex-1

2015 -Then in 2015, a campaign group including Harper, using Harper’s flawed study (see nequals8.com web site) convinces the IOC that it is unfair discrimination to exclude any male with a transgender identity describing themselves as a woman. The IOC changes the policy to allow them.

https://nequals8.com

^https://cgscholar.com/bookstore/works/race-times-for-transgender-athletes^

https://stillmed.olympic.org/Documents/Commissions_PDFfiles/Medical_commission/2015-11_ioc_consensus_meeting_on_sex_reassignment_and_hyperandrogenism-en.pdf

2016 -Then came the Rio trio in the female 800m and we start to see the testosterone suppression of the male people with DSDs come in. Semenya takes this to court in 2019. Appealed 2020. The evidence presented confirmed 5ARD and testosterone of 21 nmol/L.

2021 - 2020 Tokyo games held in 2021 was the testosterone suppressed games. Hubbard, a late 40 something male in female event where next youngest was probably a decade and a half younger, shines light on the issue.

The IOC reacts by announcing a review.

The new guidelines released Nov 2021 devolve responsibility for policy to each discipline’s international federation. ie. They force the sporting federations to make the hard decisions that the IOC refuse to make.

https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/Beyond-the-Games/Human-Rights/IOC-Framework-Fairness-Inclusion-Non-discrimination-2021.pdf#_ga=2.219716894.621299853.1686571450-594927581.1678187184

They also reaffirm that 'inclusivity' is their over all priority. They say that safety is as well, but this is clearly contradictory when you consider boxing as an example.

The IOC is clear that they RECOGNISE that the inclusion of male athletes will be UNFAIR but their priority is inclusion. Richard Budgett said this.

The federations then develop their own policies. that have done this are : FINA, WA, UCI, IBA and WR. FIFA for instance announced a review years ago and done nothing. IBA announced their new policy in 22/23.

The WA have even stated that their new guidelines for the Olympics immediately excluded 13 males with DSDs with testosterone advantage from the competitions until those 13 male athletes chose to reduce their testosterone to 2.5 nmol/L for 2 years. 13 just in athletics competitions alone! (By the way, this reduction has already been shown to not eliminate unfair male advantage, but this is where we are at the moment.)

By the IOC removing the IBA from organising the boxing, the IOC left boxing only with the IOC inclusive guidelines.

So, we know from the announcement by Budgett from IOC in November 2021 that fairness was a lower priority to inclusion. It was along the lines of ‘we know it is unfair to include male people with pubertal advantage, but inclusion is our aim.’

And the IOC and other organisations still claim that Semenya is a 'female with naturally high testosterone' to this day. Despite the world being easily able to find the evidence presented to the CAS that Semenya is MALE with 5-ARD and had tested with a testosterone level of 21nmol/L. NO female has that level and is healthy. They are likely to be gravely ill.

That is where we are now.

This is from a PCOS advocate on twitter.

PCOS raises female testosterone to up to 5.5 nmol/L (and above 4 can cause serious issues).

5-ARD raised Caster's testosterone to 21 nmol/L.

twitter.com/NathanielHart72/status/1550916276490477568?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

Plus there is this:

twitter.com/seaningle/status/1537480540068225031?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

Sean Ingle (Guardian sports journalist) mentioned this

The latest scientific publications clearly demonstrate that the return of markers of endurance capacity to "female level" occurs within six to eight months under low blood testosterone, while the awaited adaptations in muscle mass and muscle strength/power take much longer (two years minimum according to a recent study). Given the important role played by muscle strength and power in cycling performance, the UCI has decided to increase the transition period on low testosterone from 12 to 24 months. In addition, the UCI has decided to lower the maximum permitted plasma testosterone level (currently 5 mol/L) to 2.5 mol/L. This value corresponds to the maximum testosterone level found in 99.99% of the female population.

Plus this discusses the ranges

^https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/sms.14581^

The International Olympic Committee framework on fairness, inclusion and nondiscrimination on the basis of gender identity and sex variations does not protect fairness for female athletes

“In adulthood, circulating testosterone concentrations do not come close to overlapping between females (0.1–1.7 nmol/L) and males (7.7–29.4 nmol/L).”

plus that Hoovlet post with handy charts in the tweet

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819017510005407984

“Confirmed. No overlap in T levels between healthy men and women, and rarely in people with atypical levels”.

“Below I'll include some info from my book on T and sex diffs. First is an illustration of the combined data from a meta-analysis of studies on a healthy population (by David Handelsman), and another on T levels in ppl with medical conditions/DSDs (by Richard Clark). I've also included my text description of the data. The original illustration is from Doriane Coleman's excellent Sex in Sport article (link is in the graphic). She let me adapt it for my book but hers is clearer!”

If you are using the term 'woman with high testosterone', plus check your sources and don't spread misinformation. Female people with PCOS, women, DO NOT HAVE male levels of testosterone!

Cis is the word used to describe someone whose sex (assigned, observed, registered) matches their identity. It is part of the framework of language that communicates, describes, illuminates , gives voice to the experiences of gender and sex diverse people
(Because these are people whose bodies and identities do not always match sex as assigned/ observed/ registered at birth)

What’s important is that we acknowledge that sometimes people’s sex ( “observed” , “assigned”, registered) at birth does not always match their identity, and/ or their body

Mistakes made in identifying the sex of infants, due to DSDs would need to be corrected, for medical reasons as well as anything else.

Sex not matching 'identity' is not of much relevance outside the individual and their close acquaintances so no need to account for this in any official capacity.

You're right, it's no coincidence.

She's exactly where she wants to be - threatened with a law suit.

Now it's on Khelif to follow up. I think that's exactly what JKR wants, to shine a light on this issue (and similar).

As we've seen already (such as in the employment cases), sometimes it's better that these things go to court.