To think this is why the high street is failing?

[MiamiWindMachine]

I’m off on holiday in a couple of days, so thought I’d go up to the big shopping centre for a couple of last minute things.

In the massive H&M, all the tills bar one had been converted to self-service. The ones on the floor I was on were ALL closed. I went down to the lower floor and there was a huge queue, because no one could work out the machines. There was a step to remove security tags, and people couldn’t work out whether this was only for those plastic tags or if there was some flag on the barcodes for lower value items. Someone else was trying to process a return via these tills. When a member of staff eventually appeared, she confirmed returns could only be processed at a manned till. The customer pointed out that there were no manned tills. The staff member had no idea who to ask about it, then disappeared to find someone, so the queue was getting even longer.

I was on the way out about 15 minutes before closing time and went past M&S. I thought “I wonder if the Bureau de Change is still open” and went to check. The woman saw me approach and had a pained look on her face, saying “Arrgghh, I’ve just cashed uuuppp!” I was a bit taken aback, but said “Oh well, never mind. What time do you close, for future reference?” She then reluctantly admitted that she was supposed to be open until 8, but said “But I do start cashing up at around 7.30”. I was about to ask why when she started saying, “It’s fine; I’ll do it, I’ll do it”, like she was doing me a massive favour. I tried to pay on Revolut and she said “We can’t take those cards!”, as if it was somehow obvious. I asked about Apple Pay and she said, “No, it has to be a proper bank card or credit card”. I therefore went to pay with my credit card and she said, “You do know we have to charge a fee for these, don’t you?” I said I didn’t have a choice given she’d rejected two other payment methods.

I then went down to foods to grab a ready meal and some wine. I went to a manned till as I had alcohol and the girl said, “Oh, could you go to the self-service? It’s just that I’m closing this one”. I asked about the alcohol and she said, “I can approve that from here; it’s just that it’s easier for me”.

I feel like we’re constantly told in the media “Use it or lose it” re: the high street; how sad it would be if we lost the personal touch. From what I could see yesterday, one store has done everything possible to eliminate personal interaction, while in the other, the staff are more bothered about their convenience than the customers’. Is it any wonder that people would rather click a couple of buttons to get something delivered?

I went to Trafford centre yesterday and it was so very busy. So some in person shopping is giving people what they want. Hours are 12-6 Sunday and late nights all week then restaurants open even later. I’ve not been for a year and there were several new stores like Sephora (had a queue system outside and bouncers) and new restaurants.

Fair enough, I see your point. But at the same time, lots of people aren't "work units" anymore. As per the RR thread, lots of people are retiring early, lots of people aren't working at all - I think we currently have the highest ever proportion (in recent history) of economically inactive people (people not working). We also have (again in recent history) more people working part time or working from home so less time commuting. These people do have time, but they're still not spending their days wandering around bricks and mortar shops. They're still choosing to go to shopping malls, out of town supermarkets and shopping online.

There must be reasons why the traditional High Street isn't attractive to them. I'd say a lot of it is down to councils. Particularly their war on motorists due to high parking charges, one way systems, removal of on street parking, pedestrianisations, etc. Then you add in all the anti-social problems of drunks and druggies and low level street crime being ignored, Just eat cyclists weaving around pedestrians etc. It's simply not a pleasant place to go anymore. Much easier just driving to the out of town supermarket or clicking on Amazon.

So, lots of reasons really. Personally I think an answer would be working towards "localism" to get back to where we were say 50 years ago, when there were shops everywhere. Basic supplies shops on virtually every street corner, with larger and more specialist shops in the precincts and bigger shopping streets. I suppose it's something like the new idea of "15 minute cities". I've lived in our village for nearly 30 years and seen the demise. It used to be vibrant with all kinds of shops, 3 pubs, 3 churches, a school, GP surgery, chemist, 3 petrol stations and library. Now all it has is a petrol station that's a Spar. As one thing closed, it had a knock on effect, fewer people came, and so other businesses closed, and so on. I.e. the chemist never stood a chance once the GP surgery closed. The newsagents and post office never stood a chance once the school closed. Without the school, newsagents, post office, chemist, etc., the greengrocers, butchers and both grocery shops never stood a chance. And so on. It's the ripple effect. Our village that was once bustling is now deserted day and night - just the occasional rambler or dog walker. There's no way of reversing that. The same is happening in smaller towns, and even some cities. It's the "drip drip" of things closing and people going elsewhere - it's been happening since the 80s (maybe even the 70s in a few places where out of town supermarkets opened back then).

We also have to remember that chain stores caused a lot of small independent stores to close back as far back as the 60s and 70s, which extended into the 80s and 90s. I remember people complaining 30 years ago that most High Streets were "identikit" with the same chain stores. What goes around comes around. Those chain stores have now been kicked out by out of town supermarkets and the internet.

Yep, people are voting with their feet and they don't "like" the modern High Street experience, so are driving (and parking free) in bigger shopping malls, out of town supermarkets and designer outlets.

Last month we went to a designer outlet when on holiday in the UK. Midweek and it was busy mid to late morning and that was before school holidays. No parking charges, no traffic congestion, no drugs/druggies, no Just Eat cyclists. Just full of "normal" people going shopping. Even better was that most store shop seemed happy, friendly and helpful - they must prefer avoiding the "High St experience" too! We bought more on that visit than we've bought from bricks and mortar shops in years!

I think that's a reason often given, that the demise of the high-street is because of more women working, people working longer hours etc when modern conveniences mean people have more spare time than their ancestors.

So that's not the reason. The reason is it's simply more convenient.

All the women in my family had to work anyway, as did many of the working class but the reason supermarkets became so popular was because it was more convenient, cheaper, and the quality was usually more consistent.

Even if you had a housewife who didn't work outside the home, given the choice of spending several hours a week going to the butchers, bakers, grocers, hardware store, fishmongers etc compared to an hour or so a week in a supermarket where you could get everything you needed, plus often cheaper...why chose otherwise?

Same with the demise of high-street banks, terrestrial TV, video stores etc.

People don't need to be over-worked or have no free time to value convenience.

But a lot of shoppers these days seem to want the best of both worlds; grocery deliveries, Amazon for virtually everything and online shopping for everything else but on the less frequent occasions when they venture into a high-street store they seem to want a bespoke personalised experience as a valued customer.

And those days are gone for the most part. Unless you want to pay over-the-odds for it.

I've always used supermarkets as it's just more convenient and ( usually ) free parking too.
Our high street doesn't have any shops big enough for a family shop , only for bits like milk or bread etc. So once a week it's a trip to stock up.
I agree it's been made this way over many years
and probably not a good thing , but it would be hard to go back to having different shops for different things as it was in the 70s.
I suppose people can argue we have allowed it happen like this, but market forces and all that have dictated how we shop.

I think free parking is a large part of the equation.

@taxguru yes people are voting with feet for a nicer experience.
The malls and outlets are also easier to navigate if you are unsteady on feet or have a pram or wheelchair.
Vaping too. I didn’t encounter any yesterday versus if I walk down street in city it’s so unpleasant.

We are moving house, so had a large amount of things to donate to the many charity shops in our main street. Impossible to park as either double yellow lines or a long walk from a carpark. I went early and asked the shop if any of the many staff around, but not serving could help. "Oh no, they are all vulnerable and we cannot let them out to help people." No parking spaces at the back and with traffic wardens milling about, sorry. I asked later if they could collect from our house. No, not able to. Landfill it is then.

High Streets are set up from when people would go out all day Saturday shopping. What people do now is nipping. You nip to the supermarket. If you want some kids clothes or a household item you nip to a retail outlet. Somewhere you can park for free and get in and out fairly quickly. Those who want leisure shopping go to those large garden centres that sell everything from deli food to clothes.

Not just Saturdays - that was a pretty short term thing due to the dominance of identikit chain stores and soul less shopping centres that were built on previously housing or industrial sites in the town centre. Before the dominance of chain stores, people lived and worked in town centres, so they were constantly "nipping" to the shops for something every day of the week. People lived in terraces right in the town centre or on "estates" that were within walking distances. People were working in shops, offices, banks, print works, factories, warehouses, breweries, etc., right in the centre of towns. Yes, "wives" would go shopping during the day, but also the workers would go shopping in lunch hours and before/after their working day, when shopping hours were much longer and were flexed to be open when the customers were passing as the shop owners needed all the custom they could get and usually wouldn't close at times when there were lots of people passing (except for legal restrictions and half days etc)

@taxguru Town and City Centres have been with us for many years as well as local shops. Parking charges were introduced decades ago and have been increasing ever since. I know I stopped shopping the in the City Centre once the cost of parking for an hour and going to a department store, became more expensive than amazon delivery.

That is poor service. I’m a volunteer in a charity shop, fortunately there is short stay parking plus a loading bay. The paid staff help carry donations as well as certain volunteers. We also offer a collection service, it’s limited to one day a week, but there are other charity shops who pick up on different days.

Which I find really very odd. People are paying £300 a month for their posh cars but they won't fork out £2 to park? I know some car parks are really expensive (eg the Oracle in Reading) but others are pretty reasonable for a city or town centre location.

Although I guess it's not the amount but the hassle if they will only accept payment by app or it's pouring down with rain and you have to mess about at a ticket machine!

@Grammarnut
I agree. I've long said shops should be closed on Boxing Day, Good Friday and Easter Sunday, also all the Bank Holidays. I'd also like the sales to go back to being New Year sales and not Boxing Day sales.

I'm so used to shops being open on a Sunday that I can't see us going back to Sunday closing but we used to manage perfectly well. Shops even used to close on a Wednesday afternoon in the market town I moved to 40 years ago.

We visited Barnstaple earlier this year. All the shops seemed to shut at 3 or 3:30. We managed to find one cafe still open so we could eat. One of the pubs only accepted cash. The town seems to be surviving so perhaps all these long opening hours are not necessary

For shop type businesses to remain viable in the High Street. They need to be accessible to those already in the area. This in many cases will be office workers. So later opening for those finishing at 5pm would make sense. Not chasing them out the door.

This will need a change coming from management to rota, and allow for staff working later in retail. You then get the knock on effect of someone having done their shopping and deciding at 6pm to meet a friend to have a bite to eat, rather than go home and start cooking. So other businesses start thriving again.

So many complain of the death of the high street but are unwilling to try and do something about it. Will these current shop workers be so blaise if they suddenly find themselves out of work and having to journey to out of town shopping centres with much extended opening hours.

The parking it’s not the cost necessarily but the hassle. Some needs change which lots don’t carry anymore or faffing with trying to pay by card or a pay on some app. Time limits and worries about overstaying. Very zealous parking wardens.
Town my hairdressers is in is deprived and shoos are desperate for customers. The parking is free but you need a disc and it’s time limited despite car parking being virtually empty. I used to leave after hairdressers to drive to out of town shops as I didn’t have time to visit shops in town and no mechanism to extend the 2 hour parking. Total madness.

Yes, I think parking charges are a problem. When I'm out and about, it's very noticeable that the "surprisingly" vibrant towns and villages are the ones with plentiful cheap (or free) parking and without crazy pedestrianisations, one way streets, double yellows everywhere, etc. Make it cheap and easy and people will come.

Unfortunately too many councils simply don't want cars so do their utmost to make life hard for drivers. They think that by making it expensive/difficult, they'll force drivers to use buses, bikes or walk. But in reality, the drivers just drive elsewhere.

Then they need to make the busses more than once an hour and TURN THE HEATING OFF
or we get in my friends nice air conditioned car and go elsewhere

My mobile seems to dislike parking apps for my town and refuses to work! No idea why.
I'm dreading it becoming cash free over time

I wouldn't worry. Parking apps are getting more reliable, mobile broadband signals are getting better, and you'll probably be buying an upgraded smart phone within a few years, so your problem will undoubtedly resolve itself over time.

Once an hour - how lucky are you! In our village they're every two hours to the nearest city and no direct service to our nearest town at all - if you want to go to the town, you have to go to the city first and change buses at the bus station (we're in kind of a triangle). If you want to stay out for a meal, theatre, cinema etc into early evening, you're buggered as the last bus back is a ridiculously early 7pm!

Or we can take the car into the city and use the park N ride. Sounds good, but the PNR car park is at the other end of the city, so we'd have to drive through the city and out of the other side to get to it, and then get the PNR bus back coming back on ourselves. The last PNR bus of the day is a stupidly early 6.30 so again useless for evening entertainment or socialising.

The Clowncils simply havn't a clue. They're doing carrot and stick, but when it comes to drivers, it's all stick and no carrot!

I'm very lucky that I have a nice newish retail park near where I live that I can either walk or use the free parking if I take the car, no more going to the horrible high streets like I used to have to to potter round the shops

The flagship H&M in Oxford Street doesn’t even stock its maternity line. It’s ridiculous

I really really miss decent shops with good service. I could cry at the state of our local high street. There are exceptions to the rule though, we live within a day out of Stamford which I adore for shopping. All the brands I like, some individual shops and a lovely spot of lunch.

All tall ranges for clothing are online...never seen them in any store so I don't bother with any high st shopping anymore