To think this is why the high street is failing?

[MiamiWindMachine]

I’m off on holiday in a couple of days, so thought I’d go up to the big shopping centre for a couple of last minute things.

In the massive H&M, all the tills bar one had been converted to self-service. The ones on the floor I was on were ALL closed. I went down to the lower floor and there was a huge queue, because no one could work out the machines. There was a step to remove security tags, and people couldn’t work out whether this was only for those plastic tags or if there was some flag on the barcodes for lower value items. Someone else was trying to process a return via these tills. When a member of staff eventually appeared, she confirmed returns could only be processed at a manned till. The customer pointed out that there were no manned tills. The staff member had no idea who to ask about it, then disappeared to find someone, so the queue was getting even longer.

I was on the way out about 15 minutes before closing time and went past M&S. I thought “I wonder if the Bureau de Change is still open” and went to check. The woman saw me approach and had a pained look on her face, saying “Arrgghh, I’ve just cashed uuuppp!” I was a bit taken aback, but said “Oh well, never mind. What time do you close, for future reference?” She then reluctantly admitted that she was supposed to be open until 8, but said “But I do start cashing up at around 7.30”. I was about to ask why when she started saying, “It’s fine; I’ll do it, I’ll do it”, like she was doing me a massive favour. I tried to pay on Revolut and she said “We can’t take those cards!”, as if it was somehow obvious. I asked about Apple Pay and she said, “No, it has to be a proper bank card or credit card”. I therefore went to pay with my credit card and she said, “You do know we have to charge a fee for these, don’t you?” I said I didn’t have a choice given she’d rejected two other payment methods.

I then went down to foods to grab a ready meal and some wine. I went to a manned till as I had alcohol and the girl said, “Oh, could you go to the self-service? It’s just that I’m closing this one”. I asked about the alcohol and she said, “I can approve that from here; it’s just that it’s easier for me”.

I feel like we’re constantly told in the media “Use it or lose it” re: the high street; how sad it would be if we lost the personal touch. From what I could see yesterday, one store has done everything possible to eliminate personal interaction, while in the other, the staff are more bothered about their convenience than the customers’. Is it any wonder that people would rather click a couple of buttons to get something delivered?

Morrisons has now done a U turn on self checkouts, was mentioned on the BBC news also article in the DM

I stopped going to my local shopping centre because of difficulties and costs of parking. I used to love the choice and the the vibe there.now it is sad and run down. Easier to shop online now. But I agree, it’s sad

On my tablet and haven't read the full 22 pages.

Re: self-checkout. I won't use them because cashiers lose their jobs. Also if I am doing the job of a cashier where is my staff discount or reduction in prices? I am more likely to be accused of shop lifting too if, because I have no training, I make a mistake. It is not about convenience for the shopper and all about maximising profits!

Department stores shot themselves in the foot years ago when they split into franchises. I used to be able to go to the coat section or dress section etc. so could easily find what I wanted. Now I have to spend hours traipsing from Brand to Brand often on different floors. Who has the time?!

Of course I can and do (when no other choice) use the self service check outs. I think the shops are CFs though. I don't work for Lidl or whoever. I've walked around, picked up my shopping taken it to the till and then I have to deal with it myself- and the ensuing fuss if the machine doesn't work or there's alcohol. Pain in the bloody neck. Most shops need to open twice as many tills. Boots don't have any non-self service tills. I won't be going back.

Self checkouts were ok and good in supermarkets when there were a few and they were mainly aimed at the lunchtime rush of sandwich and drink or the odd thing that you might pop in for, now they are expected to be used for the weekly shop, it's just gone too far.

They don't work half the time. Big companies have employed far less staff because of the reliance on these machine that don't work. This puts huge pressure on the staff remaining.

I specifically go to shops that have actual staff at the tills.

It's getting to the point where an actual human member of staff is the 'unexpected item in the bagging area'

Good. Asda is particularly bad for the machines not working properly.

@Alleycat1

Department stores shot themselves in the foot years ago when they split into franchises. I used to be able to go to the coat section or dress section etc. so could easily find what I wanted. Now I have to spend hours traipsing from Brand to Brand often on different floors. Who has the time?!

I agree with that. It was OK in the past when people made an "event" of shopping, but now when you have to fit it in your lunch hour or have to get back to your car within 1 or 2 hours to avoid getting a parking fine, you need to be in and out of the shops without dallying around.

The last time I went to Debenhams before it shut down was a case in point. I just wanted a pair of "normal" black jeans. I spent ages going from franchise to franchise trying to find some - there were skinny ones, embroidered ones, long ones, short ones, flared ones, torn ones, depending on which franchise, but no "bog standard boring" normal black jeans. I kept asking shop assistants but they all just vaguely pointed me to "try" other franchises. After an hour traipsing around, upstairs, downstairs, through narrow openings into different areas (it was an old fashioned store with different levels etc, knocked through different buildings etc). I just gave home and was heading out, when I saw a random rail in a corner behind a pillar - it was a rail of normal black jeans - I could have cried with joy - then I realised they had them in every size except the size I actually wanted. What a come down! Never went back again.

Same with OH at Debenhams - he's a "big" man and found that Debenhams were the only place who sold "very large" winter coats. For years, we'd go to Debenhams every 2 or 3 years to buy him a new coat. Go back 10-20 years or so and they had a kind of "area" for thick winter coats - always a good range of colours, styles and sizes. The last few times, we'd go to Debs and we had to trail around different franchises and none of them had big winter coats in his size, so we ended up walking away with nothing - we kept trying 2/3/4 winters but they never had any.

It was no surprise at all for us when Debs shut their stores. They were the architects of their own demise.

@taxguru
Totally agree about Debenhams and the franchises, shopping in store was a right nightmare. However I used to love their website to narrow down the choices and I regularly used to buy from there and got used to which brands etc fitted well. But even that got worse. I’d order 4 of the same size and one would be massive on me, two too tight and I’d keep one if I was lucky. No wonder they went under.
I do miss Debenhams at Christmas though, their gifts were lovely

Yes I think this is the key point. I am quite happy to use them for a few things - they save time and save me having to queue (generally).

But I can't imagine what a PITA it is to scan a whole trolley shop. Especially as you very often can't bag as you go. At least if you go to a staffed till there's time to put things in bags as the member of staff scans them.

I won't use scan as you shop because of the "random" rescanning which will take an age - and you still have to go through age verification if you have age restricted items, so query where you save any time!

Ha ha yes. I was in Lidl yesterday and noticed there wasn't a member of staff by the self-checkout. Fortunately I was only buying a couple of things and didn't need anyone to help me.

I think if you refuse to use self checkout/the hand held things in the supermarket, you're just ignorant

I think the people who use them without question and just accept being treated badly by businesses with whom they spend £1000s a year may have a better claim to the "ignorant" description. But there is really no need to be so insulting.

We have no self checkouts in our local Lidl. I would actually like one as I hate going in to buy a couple of things and having to stand behind people with massive trolleys. I don't know why they have 6 checkouts as there are never more than 2 of them operating.

That is a management issue rather than a customer or worker issue. If the staff member finishes at eg 5pm then the tills should close at 4:30 and the management deal with the fallout. This should be conveyed to the customer.

I do know of some businesses where the staff do get paid to cash up. It is just their desperation to get home that they chose to cash up early.

@ATenShun What chains pay staff to cash up?

Any that don't are breaking employment law on all employees working minimum wage. But again this isn't the customers issue. Don't want to work beyond your contracted hours. Start cashing up 30 mins early and don't serve anybody else. At eg 5pm. Walk to your locker, get your coat and go home. Let the manager deal with the fallout. You are only ever a number.

Which is a perfectly reasonable desire.

I'd suggest a shake up of high street opening times has been needed for a long time. To my mind a later opening time as well as later closing would make far more sense including banks (talking to you santander). Who realistically is going clothes shopping at 9am in the town centre. But the office workers finishing at 5pm are more likely to do it after work.

Old school shop hours were fine in the 80's where one member of the family often didn't go out to work. Now with both working full time as well as other family commitments, going into town shopping on the morning bus no longer happens.

Given the nature of UK weather (frequent rain), I’m always surprised that shopping arcades aren’t commoner. I mean, shopping is a way to get out of the house and stretch your legs when the weather is crap, but you need a roof to do it under!

Changing shop hours is a balance of interests. Some people go clothes shopping at nine in the morning, shift workers getting off work at 2 a.m. might like to shop then (the rationale behind 24-hour supermarkets). But shop workers also have homes, families, the need/desire to go shopping at a convenient time. Ditto bank employees. It is also the case that the majority of shop workers are women, who will not be safe travelling alone late at night.
Currently, shops open roughly between 8 a.m. and 8 o'clock where I live, apart from supermarkets, which open till 10 p.m. (except Sundays, and being shut entirely on Easter and Christmas Day - personally, I would support a return to being shut on Good Friday and Boxing Day as well). I presume workers do shifts to accommodate these hours, since hours are regulated nationally. These hours seem super-reasonable to me. No-one desperately needs to shop at midnight (and if there is such a pressing need there are 24-hour supermarkets and a rota of all-night chemists, and the odd garage shop will be open).
The problem with town shopping centres is not the hours shops are open (they are open 8-22) but that people have less time generally to shop and also have been seduced into shopping online (catalogue shopping without the guarantee the goods will be what they seem) by the ease and (relative) quickness. There is a great deal that is good about shopping online. For example, Amazon (which has a massive grip on internet shopping) enables writers who would be unable to get work published to sell their books; also, small retailers or one-item sellers can reach a larger audience than before e.g. vintage clothes sellers, craft-workers etc. But the downside is the death of small shops in town - it is no longer possible to go to a good camera shop and get advice, because they have shut; the internet took their sales, being cheaper.
The direct outcome will be higher online prices, once physical outlets for some goods disappear. This is the law of supply and demand. If the internet is the only place to buy then prices will cease to be cheaper.
I don't have an answer, except that people do value personal contact when shopping, so instead of installing self-checkouts, shops should employ more staff, there to help and advise, to have knowledge of the products they sell (not just what it says on the box), so that shopping becomes a good experience rather than a chore.
If we want only convenience then contactless shopping is the future. It's also the future I think we will get.
If we want it otherwise then an entire shift in economic policy is needed: a retreat from globalization and neo-liberal policies which treat people as economic units, worthless unless they are economically active (hence the derogatory terms for women who stay at home with their children). Not going to get that without a revolution.

@Grammarnut

But the downside is the death of small shops in town

Small shops were closing down long before internet shopping simply because of big supermarkets starting to sell everything and Argos. Yes, in the case of camera shops, Supermarkets and Argos may not have sold the "top of range" specialist gear, but they sold the bread and butter stuff, i.e. the bulk of the sales, and without a constant stream of "normal" customers wanting basic cameras, no High Street specialist camera shop is going to survive on the occasional customer wanting something special. Same applies to lots of other things, i.e. supermarkets selling basic clothing, supermarkets selling fresh meat, veg and fish causing the demise of greengrocers, fishmongers, butchers, etc. You can go right back to the 80s and 90s to trace the smaller shops closing down.

Yes, I understand. It's a case of if you want it, use it. Presumably we do not want specialist shops any more. I was arguing that neo-liberal policies have shaped shopping habits. We use supermarkets, which sell everything, because it is convenient and we do not have much time. Most work long hours - not just shopworkers - and most have their free-time disagregated i.e. they do not have week-ends as guaranteed time off. These are the results of seeing people as economic units which produce for the economy, rather than the economy being fo the people, which would result in a greater variety of work and shopping practices.

Online shopping is chicken and egg.

People shop online because their local town centre doesn't stock what they need, and then their local town centre doesn't stock what they need because people buy online.

Some shops are very much shop windows for their online offering - eg they'll have a particular item but it won't be in the colour I want or the size, but I can see the cut, material, etc and then I'll order it online in the colour and size I want.

These are the results of seeing people as economic units which produce for the economy, rather than the economy being for the people, which would result in a greater variety of work and shopping practices

And we're back to the idea of decrapifying work!