Am I being mean about the "supersweet" friend?

[endlessnonsense]

I have a friend (well, she's equally a friend of me and DH, she and her XH used to be our neighbours). We now only see her a couple of times a year as we live far away now, and I wouldn't call her a really close friend. When we go on holiday, which is to a hot seaside place in Europe, we often get friends joining us as we have a place to stay and a boat, which is fun. This year she came.

I spent a lot of the time she was here in a state of suppressed anger at her, which caused me to resent her being here. This is because she turned out, on a several-days long time together, rather than the odd dinner we usually have, to be constantly pretending (or was she pretending?) to be very thoughtful and considerate, when I felt she was being just the opposite, in a passive aggressive way.

Everywhere we suggested going and everything we suggested doing, she deferred to us, "oh I'll do whatever you want, don't worry about me", never offering any suggestions of her own or seeming especially enthusiatic. OK, fair enough, we know the place and she doesn't. But it went much further. She was always faux putting herself down/being the martyr/putting on performative sweetness.

My son has special needs and she is always supersweet to him, but I told her multiple times during the holiday, no, he doesn't want an ice cream, he doesn't like it. It must have run into more than a dozen times she said, "oh darling, do you want an ice cream, oh please let me get him an ice cream, I'll pay"(as though I wasn't getting him the ice cream myself because of meanness). (Strangely, although she knows he does like chocolate, she never once offered to buy him a chocolate)

We planned a trip to a particular place she hadn't been, specifically to show it to her. Other friends were coming too, they are local and had been to the place many times, but we're coming along to be sociable with us and her. When she asked me how many people were coming and I mentioned it would be quite a few (in positive way, saying it would be a fun social event) she said, all sweetly, "well if you don't have room for me I'll just stay behind at the apartment, I don't mind at all". That really annoyed me, she knew the trip was arranged specifically for her!

Another (even more annoying) example, we were at a beach bar/restaurant with a bunch of people. Too many to get one table so we were split between 2 tables. Our food came marginally before the other table's (not more than 2 or 3 minutes). In that time she expressed concern that the toddler at the other table had not yet got her food, and actually got up to take her own plate of food to the toddler (it was a salad of some sort and the toddler was getting chips, so not even remotely the same thing). Me and DH had to physically get her to stop it and sit down before the toddler's mum saw.

She has always been very much a "oh don't worry about me, I'll just have a tap water" type of person, but on this holiday she really got my goat. She's left now and I am not sure if she noticed I was a bit snippy with her by the end. AIBU and a mean friend?

I think you need to ask yourself why you see the behaviour the OP describes as ‘nice and accommodating’. Offering to stay at home from an outing that’s specifically been organised for your benefit isn’t in any way helpful or accommodating (if anything, it’s a bit rude and suggests a lack of enthusiasm), and neither is continually saying ‘Oh, let me buy your child an icecream’ every time you pass a shop, when you’ve been told that the child doesn’t like icecream — it just suggests you’re not listening and an ‘automatic’ mode.

I do think this woman was anxious and trying to please, but if she’d thought about other people a bit rather than herself and her impact, she’d have seen that her behaviour was having the opposite effect.

If, as I suspect, she didn’t in fact want to go on the outing with a lot of strangers (which I can understand, if she was feeling sub par), the thing to do is to be honest about it. The OP isn’t unsympathetic.

Instead, her behaviour has had the opposite effect to her intention (which also suggests she’s not considering other people). She clearly thinks she was a delight to be around and is assuming further invitations in future, whereas the OP is now determined not to because of her behaviour this time.

Yes, this! I was reading some of what the OP said about the poor woman, and I could recognise myself in some of it. I'm not as extreme, maybe, but I do have a tendency to people please and my self esteem isn't what it should be. And it stems from having a shitty family member I avoided as much as possible when growing up (hard when you live in the same house). I've worked damn hard to try and please myself and change the way I am. I'm now sitting here wondering if people hate me because of the way I react to things sometimes. Poor woman. One thing we could all do with more of is some understanding.

This is spot on and it's the exact trouble with people pleasing. It's done to "be nice" but it has the opposite effect and comes across as passive aggressive and inauthentic. As a reformed PP it took me a long time to see this but it absolutely gets people's backs up for this very reason.

Noone is "just fine" with anything - we all have preferences and views and constantly suppressing them ends up in resentment for the person (I can guarantee you that inside she is like a pressure cooker and not "fine" at all) and others picking up on the fact that what she is saying simply isnt genuine- its masking her true feelings which to others "feels" like lying even though its not done intentionally to deceive.

It's difficult to express your authentic self when you are anxious, I totally get that but it's vital to start small and practice doing it. For both your own sake and mental health and so that you can connect genuinely with others in an authentic way. Otherwise, people end up feeling they just dont know the real "you" at all and all they're getting is some kind of bizarre Stepford friend.

Ever so 'umble Sir! Sometimes I used to call my late OH Uriah, if I asked what he fancied for lunch he invariably would say I'm easy, and I'd often say Yes, I know you're easy but what would you like for lunch first!
It's really annoying, we have been known to be standing in the check in queue at the airport going on a long road trip and he'd start wondering where we were sleeping that night! Luckily for him, and me, I enjoyed the planning of trips.

I would say something every time.

Such as "Why do you insist on buying my child something he doesn't like? Don't you like him?"

Or

"Why would you give your salad away? I can see you don't like it, I'll get the waiter". And proceed to call the server over and say to the server "Jane doesn't like her meal she's trying to give it away to a toddler can we get her something else from the menu."

I have used these exact examples ad nauseum. These people think nothing of being manipulative and only understand the language of taking the piss.

I find people like this are interesting when you INSIST they make a decision for the group (eg restaurant). The genuinely nice ones clearly flounder and are very anxious about it, while the manipulative ones get really arsey and dickish. I usually then make a point of praising whatever choice the genuinely nice people make, so that they might gain some confidence from the experience.

I must admit my own response to a childhood of not being permitted to have needs is to go off on my own a lot. You're not being selfish and diminishing the enjoyment of the group if you're on your own....

"My MIL is exactly like this but it's not manipulative it's just she genuinely thinks she must never express an opinion in case she upsets someone. She doesn't even realise she's doing it. And when it's pointed out she can't understand how deferring to everyone else's needs would be infuriating. It by turns drives me mad and makes me sad that she's never felt empowered to say "no this is what i want to do". She can never state she's enjoyed something until it's all over and done with and she then knows no one was upset and nothing went wrong. This can cover across as her being bored and disengaged with everything." @TinyGingerCat

This reads like my DM as I mentioned earlier who always defers to others, even if the issue is for her to deal with on her own i.e. has a medical condition; she's asked 'would you like to give XYZ a go?' and she'll look at me and say 'what do you think?' (just as an example) She actually wants me (or whomever she defers to) to make that specific decision for her. I often wonder if it's because if that decision was the wrong one, she can piously say 'ah well, never mind, you said I should try it but it didn't help. I knew it wouldn't'. So, in a way, passing the blame to me and to guilt me so, as a result, I no longer help her with these kind of things.

But additionally, the last couple of sentences in your post where you say she can't enjoy anything until it's over. That's something else my DM does at family events. And then when it is over, she'll cry because she's had such a lovely time and that it's all over and done with rather than be happy that she was fortunate enough to attend and see people she loved and relish in the happiness of it all. It's all doom and gloom. I remember her telling me as a child 'don't ever look forward to anything because when it doesn't happen, you won't be disappointed'. So whenever I felt excitement about something, it turned into anxiety because I felt those feelings of excitement were wrong and I shouldn't be feeling them.

She was brought up by parents who were very Victorian in their views (from what she has told me), quite authoritarian and she then subsequently married someone who had a much stronger personality so was subservient to him too and 'did as she was told'. All very sad but infuriating at the same time!

People keep saying ‘low self-esteem’ and ‘anxiety’ as if these were clinchers. Bluntly, they don’t make irritating behaviours any less irritating to be around.

Some people with poor self-esteem boast continually, some invent completely fictional pasts for themselves, or imaginary encounters with the opposite sex designed to imply someone found them irresistible. Some people with poor self-esteem continually put themselves down and leave an expectant pause in order for the other person to say ‘Nonsense, your dress is beautiful/you’re very clever/you’re a wonderful person’.

I once had a casual friend in a large group who, despite her manifold achievements, was so anxious she used to phone up every single time she’d seen me and say tearfully ‘I think I offended you today — did I say something awful? Tell me and I’ll apologise!’ On enquiry, she did it to nearly everyone. Every time.

Those behaviours absolutely come from a place of anxiety, but we’re responsible as adults for dealing with our own shit.

I can see how all that would be annoying, like others have said I do wonder if the breakup has had a negative impact on her. Her self esteem may have been damaged and it may have made her feel her husband or others think she’s not a good person, so she’s subconsciously trying to prove to herself and others around her that she is the this lovely perfect woman, hence all the performative stuff.

I’d try avoid having her on holiday again but maintain the friendship although maybe slightly more distanced enough so that she doesn’t irritate you.

Going on holiday with friends is a big thing and many otherwise strong friendships don’t survive it! I’ve heard of so many friendships ending or things going a bit sour after a trip.

So it’s not surprising you felt you seen another side of her that is more annoying than usual.

She sounds absolutely lovely , just a really kind , humane person. So strange how you didn’t like how nice she was to your son.
Also I’m Irish and culturally this is very much a thing here “oh don’t worry about me”, “I don’t mind , do whatever suits you “ etc etc so you might not want to visit here @endlessnonsense or you’ll lose your shit here everyday !!! Please look up Killersundy-trying to make an Irish person choose on YouTube . You won’t like it op! Tell you friend to move to Ireland !

You sound a bit unreasonable to me. She was on your patch and trying to be polite and fit in. She could well be a bit anxious or people pleasing. Perhaps you need to say to her it's easier for you if she's more decisive and tells you more clearly what she likes and doesn't and what she fancies doing. She actually sounds a genuinely nice person to me from the slightly petty (sorry but they do really seem so insignificant) examples you give. If it's performative, I don't really get that as the examples seem so petty and don't have much of a stage!

Her "niceness" might be making you feel bad about yourself for some reason. On the other hand, having people to stay is a strain and maybe that magnifies the irritation you feel so, whether reaonsable or not, it is what it is and limiting the time you spend together will stop you being snippy with her.

I get it that people can be anxious about groups etc. I am not overkeen on big gatherings of people I don't know well. But she knows precisely the type of holidays we have here, she has been before. And if she had said I fancy lying on the beach and pottering about today, rather than going out, that would have been fine. Instead of pretending she was doing us a favour by offering not to come (she had been perfectly happy about the trip when it was being planned the day before we went and knew full well we chose it for her benefit).

I used to be a bit like this when I was younger, not to that extent but definitely had a touch of it. I suddenly realised one day that people didn’t actually like that kind of person and my attempts to be ‘so nice how can you not like me’ got me dumped (by guys) on several occasions (I wasn’t quite as bad with friends). Thankfully I saw the light and became much more ‘real’ and now wouldn’t dream of behaving that way. I wonder if it contributed to her marriage break up because bottom line is it just makes a person look wet and insipid (even if none of it is done with bad intent). Mine came from a fear of not being liked but it was counter productive.

I'm now sitting here wondering if people hate me because of the way I react to things sometimes

You see this is an interesting example - it’s unlikely that people would hate you - That’s such a strong word. The OP hasn’t said she hates this lady - she’s irritated by her. (She does sound irritating) If you’re the type of person martyring yourself at every opportunity you’re not doing anyone a favours. All you’re doing is making someone else responsible for your welfare / happiness. “ I don’t mind” is only “ go with the flow” if it’s deployed sporadically. If you never make a suggestion or choice then you’re off loading the labour involved in decision making to someone else.

There is no need the complicate the ice cream thing, the endless not making decision thing would drive me up the wall but this anxiety excuse gets old

If you liked her you could rephrase questions so there is more direct answers needed but I would stay friends but not do the holiday thing

@Thatsawrap1 I live in Ireland. I haven't come across this, to this extent, there. If anything I find the Irish people I know refreshingly no-nonsense.

I think I probably do this sometimes. I'll speak up if I have a strong preference, but quite often, especially in situations like this, I'd be so grateful to have been included in the trip, I genuinely wouldn't care what we did once there. If something was organised where the numbers don't quite work out, I'd feel that, as the outsider, I should be the one to volunteer to sit out.

That would annoy me too. Let her go.

This!
The thread has certainly bought out plenty of bitterness. I had no idea saying ‘I don’t mind’ developed such rage in people.
(now busily thinking of a new expression)

Oh, I can definitely relate to this! I'm in NI and it's completely normal to be self effacing and not want to impose your views. I sometimes wonder how any decisions ever get made!

She sounds like a nice person. You'll have to learn to be nice and direct with her. When she asks about icecream, say he hates icecream, but he'd love a bar of chocolate thank you! When she offers her salad to a child say, she doesn't want your salad, her chips are coming right now!

The problem is if you assert yourself and say, "I don't want to do x I want to do y" the same people will probably be just as angry about you being controlling and wanting to call all the shots. You can't win with some people.

Agreed

This is really odd behaviour

We planned a trip to a particular place she hadn't been, specifically to show it to her. Other friends were coming too, they are local and had been to the place many times, but we're coming along to be sociable with us and her.

Why the need to organise a mass outing if she was the only person who hadn't seen it?

Realistically people don't always psychologically evaluate, unpick and dissect the effects of their upbringing though. Most people don't, unless they feel the side effects to themselves in a negative way.

People have the responsibility to have a certain awareness and tolerance that people can be different due to being raised differently (within reason of course, not talking very negative socialisation) and that doesn't automatically make their motives bad

We all say “I don’t mind” sometimes. What’s irritating is when someone says it constantly, never expresses a preference, and always seems to be trying to bend to what everyone else wants - especially if it doesn’t look genuine or seems performative.