Is the Union Jack racist?

[cupcaske123]

Eamonn Holmes had a bit of an argument with a guest on GB News as to whether the Union Jack is racist.

I understand that the George Cross is associated with the Far Right but had never associated the Union Jack with racism.

Apparently people at a village hall in Norfolk didn't want to be accused of racism for flying the British flag.

I think it's madness, what do you think?

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/eamonn-holmes-gb-news-union-jack-b2595611.html

So let me get this right. You watched a well known shit stirring outfit calling itself a ‘news’ channel create a segment aimed at generating confected outrage, and decided to bring it here?

It was not a genuine debate, its ’engagement’ creation e.g. creating a twitter war.

Not reading the entire thread but I suspect all that will happen is it will be a tennis match between the ‘you’re not allowed to say anything these days because of the woke mob’ team and the ‘colonialism racist’ team, with a smattering of sensible people wasting their time. By 1am someone will say something super racist and the thread will disappear whilst MN ‘take a look behind the scenes.

Can’t believe people fall for this culture war bullshit.

No, but flags are used as symbols by racists.

I remember the NF chanting, “There ain’t no black on the Union Jack”, many years ago.

There ain’t no Caucasian flesh colour either, but that doesn’t sound as snappy, or further their argument, does it? 🙄

Yes it’s raciest to some people. In practical terms I guess it isn’t, but for some reason unbeknown to myself, as soon as I see an English flag flying from someone’s house, I immediately think raciest live there. I have no idea why, but something inside me does think this. I think it’s due to as a country, the impression is we are ashamed of it, rather than proud.

@spuddy4 "There have been militant Welsh nationalists tbf"

Yes- but did they make the flag their symbol? If they did-I retract my point!

You are not a snob but you are bigoted. Why on earth is the national flag of England so shameful? I am not even English nor do i live in England yet i happily raise it on St George's day. I also raise the Welsh flag, the Northern Irish flagon their Saints days, the Union flag on Trafalgar day and the Flag of Gibraltar on National day.

It's a uniquely British thing to hate yourself to the point of extinction

I don’t “hate myself”. Far from it. But my sense of self esteem doesn’t depend on where I am from and what my nationality is. I prefer to get this from my own achievements rather than something as arbitrary as where I was born.

I wouldn’t fly the St George’s Cross (outside of sports) because it has been appropriated by people who have an approach to “England” and “Englishness” and espouse a set of values about my nation which I wish to distance myself from.

This is unfair. The flag isn’t intrinsically racist or xenophobic but the bare facts are that the majority of people who fly it espouse these views at the moment.

But don’t blame the majority of British people for this. Blame the people who appropriated it and the shit show this has wrought on the country in recent years.

It isn't but racists love it. In the 1970s and 80s the Union flag was largely appropriated by the National Front before whatever bunch of racists that have replaced them decided the Cross of St George would be a better signifier because it's proper English innit like what the Crusaders used. History not being a strong point with them. It's dubious to display it unless it's a national occasion that is a significantly unifying event eg Royal weddings etc.

TBH, the nationalistic displays that make me more uncomfortable are the displays of national costume. Men and women in ‘traditional’ peasant clothes dancing around in fields. Always makes me think of 1930s Germany.

At least the English version is comical and harmless: Morris dancers.

Although I was once told by an earnest bearded folky type that Morris dancing is in fact a form of lethal martial art if practised properly. Can’t see it myself. I can’t imagine how bells, handkerchiefs or a bladder on a stick could be used effectively to fight with.

I have no idea? I didn't mention anything about militant Welsh so I think you are asking the wrong person.

@Getonwitit

Why on earth is the national flag of England so shameful

Its not intrinsically shameful. It’s the kind of people who display it who make it so.

Believe me I wish this wasn’t true. I would love to have a flag of nationhood that wasn’t embarrassing. But its use correlates so predictably with people who want to reclaim a narrow version of England which no longer exists (and hasn’t since after WW2).

Ain't that the truth! I am half-French. When I lived in Paris, I came home at around 10.30 pm and switch on the TV to watch the news and the newsreader announced that le Senat (the French Upper House) 'admitted' to participating in the slave trade. Admitted!! . I was astounded! How would have France accrued its wealth, funded its wars, etc without the slave trade.?
The following morning, I brought the top newspapers, 'Le Monde ' etc, to read more about this 'admission'. There was nothing, absolutely nothing in the papers, no discussion, nothing. I must have dreamed it.....!

hmm . I think it’s hard to argue that the national flag is not a symbol of the nation…

Militant Welsh nationalists of the 70s and 80s were more of the 'let's burn down that foreigners holiday home' persuasion than simple nationalistic flag wavers iirc.

Of course not. In fact, recently, I’ve noticed more buildings flying the flag, and I think it’s great. As an aside, seeing the person who Eammon was debating it with, she’s an awful woman. I’ve seen her on debates with several presenters, and she despises anything that’s linked to (British) patriotism. I don’t think they can find anyone else with as extreme views, hence using her in most debates of this type.

Flags aren't racist. Some racist people venerate the flag as a symbol of a utopian past (which never really existed) but that is because they're morons.
I do think that the design of the union flag is fantastic. We have one of the best flags (the Seychelles has a good one too) but we have easily the worst national anthem.

Just as nationalists try to claim the saltire as their own

Do they?

As Scots they are as entitled to identify with that flag as any other Scot. Just because someone happens to be carrying it or flying it doesn't mean they are attempting to claim hegemony over it or deny it's use to others.

It's not like Scots "nationalists" are one homogenous bunch in any case. A lot simply believe in self-governance and it's nothing at all to do with national identity or flags. Some of us find the notion of "patriotism" ridiculous and laugh at the flag-shaggers the same way we do at folk who prostrate themselves in front of the Union flag.

Then you have the Saor Alba gimps, who are every bit as vile and embarrassing as the EDL/Britain First lot, universally viewed with scorn. Well except from folk who despise Scotland and everything associated with it, have no idea who Saor Alba actually are, yet repeatedly attempt to paint them as representative of the entire pro-Indi movement.

It's not only the world that's gone anti UK recently but the UK has done so, too. Or at least some people here have. And those people are principally the media lovies in London, who spend all their time telling us how awful we are.

Well, we're not. We're far from perfect, as every nation is, but all this UK bashing is doing us no good at all.

So the answer is no, neither of our flags is racist, nor do they represent racism. They were allowed to be hijacked by some unsavoury people and that should have been nipped in the bud, but it wasn't.

I recall some people comparing the flags along Regent Street put up to celebrate the late Queen’s jubilee, to some sort of third reich/nationalistic symbol

Unfortunately, It has been appropriated by people who are racist. Some of the "protesters"who were trying to burn asylum seekers to death last week were displaying the flag.

If you are in NI and support a united Ireland or it can be goady. Same in scotland if you are a nationalist and orange marchers are waving it in front of you.

I did see them and honestly coming from NI it did make me feel viscerally uncomfortable even though logically I knew that was ridiculous. DH felt the same.

I've felt the same way about the tricolour on the end of the pier in my home town in Dublin as well, whereas I would have hardly noticed it growing up.

This is the sort of issue that we'll all interpret differently based on our own personal experiences.

hmm . I think it’s hard to argue that the national flag is not a symbol of the nation…

I agreed that a national flag is a symbol of a nation @Tandora

That's different from "nationalism".

Nationalism is an ideology or mindset.

A nation is just a country.

If you don't understand the difference, why are you confidently posting about it?

Union Jack is the national flag of course it’s not racist

True. But why does the use of the flag by a few violent morons mean that their unpleasantness is the association rather than, say, Olympic athletes happily wearing and waving the flag? Or a prime minister appearing with the Union Jack behind him?

I will be pedantic and say it is only the Union Jack when flown on a ship and the Union flag when flown on land.

That's all the more reason for appropriating it straight back.