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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Keir Starmer holds a lot of sway?

401 replies

TakemedowntoPotatoCity · 09/08/2024 18:14

Former Director of Public Prosecutions. Now PM.
Following the 'civil unrest' last week, several perpetrators have been not only arrested and jailed, but publicly named and shamed, the speed of which I have never seen before.
Our PM clearly knows the right people to get things rolling quickly.
This, combined with the anti racism protestors, gives me a glimmer of hope for the future. I feel in safe(ish) hands with Keir.AIBU?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
EwwSprouts · 10/08/2024 12:26

The speed is not down to KS. Saw Nafir Azal who said it was all in place as same was done a few years back after other riots, so the processes were in place already to set in motion as required.

cardibach · 10/08/2024 12:30

Otherstories2002 · 09/08/2024 21:27

What have they done about it?

and you’re right re ignorance. You’re ignorant to the fact that rioters were prioritised over rapists. It’s that simple. And this nonsense about you have to because public order offence. Rape is far worse and a much bigger threat. The fact that you’re sweeping it under the carpet says it all.

Set up 80 courts for rape cases?
Amd rioters weren’t prioritised over rape cases. They pleaded guilty at magistrates courts so never came into competition for court time with rape cases Your bitterness at Labour getting in and your ignorance of what is happening is making you look a little foolish here.

ThisHangryPinkBalonz · 10/08/2024 12:37

EmeraldRoulette · 09/08/2024 21:46

I’m going to treat this as a genuine question

Both sides are wanting a lot more time to prepare their case in the example you provided

they wouldn’t want to be given a court date of next week. Also the case will be heard in front of a jury and in a criminal court. It takes a lot more prep to deal with than a guilty plea to be heard by a magistrate, with someone who had their mate film them doing the whole thing.

props to all involved in the current situation for efficiency- something we haven’t seen for ages. Since the 2011 riots probably!

Edited

Thank you, I didn't think of that and will be interesting to see, if he is found guilty, if he's given a decent sentence. No- one doing their job should be assaulted like this.

BeachParty · 10/08/2024 12:38

I think he's great.
Feels like the grown ups are back in charge.

thefireplace · 10/08/2024 12:39

maddening · 09/08/2024 18:39

Pity they aren't so fervent when it comes to rape and sexual abuse.

Well, if the person doing the rape or abuse allowed themselves to filmed doing it in the street, then yes doubtless they would be able to prosecute more effectively.

"He said, she said" cases are extremely difficult to prosecute successfully, add in 14 years of constant cuts in Policing and the courts and you have your answer... but we have only ourselves to blame, we kept voting for more austerity.

ThisHangryPinkBalonz · 10/08/2024 12:39

Bontonbonbon · 10/08/2024 09:42

@ThisHangryPinkBalonz

You obviously decided to ignore the bit where that defendant pled not guilty. It will have to go to full trial, which takes much longer because the CPS have to prepare a case.

But don’t let that get in the way of your bias.

Bias? Of what? I do love assumptions from random people online.

Otherstories2002 · 10/08/2024 12:47

bombastix · 10/08/2024 11:27

And the law decides by jury trial, so it’s a jury of peers.

Not in a magistrates court it isn’t.

Otherstories2002 · 10/08/2024 12:49

DipDopDooDa · 10/08/2024 12:13

@Otherstories2002 you seem to be suggesting that the fast tracking of the riots cases has materially delayed rape cases, to such a degree that shows negligent disregard for the importance of pursuing convictions in those rape cases.

You seem to tacitly agree that the approach taken against the riot cases - swift, harsher sentences designed to counter and reverse the moment behind the disorder - will have a deterrent effect, and appear to be making an equivalence to rape cases, in other words that fast tracking rape cases would have similar deterrent value.

Your initial, substantive point wasn't that there is some sharing of resources between policing and criminals justice between the paths for cases whereby rioter pleads guilty, and a rapist who pleads not guilty, as obviously that would be such a facile point that nobody would be bothered to make it.

Instead, you were saying that resources had been reassigned from rape to riot to such a degree that any deterrent effect in the rape cases would be reduced. Instead, you wonder why there instead hasn't been a reassignment of resources towards the rape backlog, as you would like to see a similar deterrent to rapists.

The fact is, the transfer of resources to these riot cases is temporary and tiny in the scheme of things, and the intention is to reduce pressure on the system over the medium term. By "nipping it in the bud", there will be fewer cases overall, and therefore more capacity to pursue other cases, such as rape. This is pretty obvious, no?

Meanwhile, the rape backlog is so large, that in order to make any difference there would be MASSIVELY more resources needed. It's just not comparable with the "spike" we have seen for the riots in recent days. Any meaningful improvement to the rape backlog will take a lot more money and a lot more time. For example, they might need to set up a load of new rape courts, which would take time. And, as you have read on this thread, that is exactly what this government are doing.

Finally, rape conviction rates are notoriously low. There are a whole host of specialists required to secure a conviction, from lawyers to police officers. They can't just transfer over PC Plod to the rape cases, we need specially trained, experienced police on these cases, same across the rest of the system. So yes, there very much are, effectively "different" police forces, not across the whole lifecycle of a case, but certainly in the bottlenecks that are actually causing the delays, which is the big that matters. Again, this seems to be obvious to anyone with a grain of sense; I can't believe you're not aware of this.

You seem to have shifted your point from "there aren't two separate police forces, why don't they just transfer police to rape cases" which is obviously just wrongheaded, to "there is some sharing of resources" which is so irrelevant to your initial point that I can't believe you are making it in good faith.

Sorry about the long post, everyone!

Nope.

not suggesting any of that. On any level.

swimsong · 10/08/2024 12:53

TooBigForMyBoots · 09/08/2024 19:03

I too am looking forward to the specialist rape courts planned by PM Starmer. I hope the rioters haven't delayed them.Angry

That will not affect the setting up of the new courts. Any delay will be due to there not yet being enough judges. Barristers can fill in - but that takes them off the cases. There's been a failure to recruit - another fine mess the incompetent Tory toffs have left behind.

The Secret Barrister, the criminal justice commentator, observed on X that the Conservative Party’s manifesto “contains not a single mention of the record delays caused by its defunding and mismanagement of the criminal justice system. Not a single idea to fix the 5-year delays for rape trials.”

https://www.tortoisemedia.com/2024/06/13/labour-pledges-new-courts-for-sexual-assault-trials-but-where-are-the-judges/

I'm sure Starmer understands what needs to be done.

Labour pledges new courts for sexual assault trials – but where are the judges? - Tortoise

Ahead of its manifesto launch, Labour has pledged to create 80 new “rape courts” to tackle the UK’s enormous backlog of sexual assault trials. Delays due to lack of capacity in the criminal justice system currently mean that if a woman reports being ra...

https://www.tortoisemedia.com/2024/06/13/labour-pledges-new-courts-for-sexual-assault-trials-but-where-are-the-judges

TooBigForMyBoots · 10/08/2024 12:58

Notonthestairs · 10/08/2024 11:33

Beginning to think a few on MN are feeling uncomfortable about sharing the fictitious story.

www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/racist-and-religious-hate-crime-prosecution-guidance

I wonder if this woman is a Mnetter?🙈
metro.co.uk/2024/08/07/tory-councillors-wife-arrested-saying-set-fire-migrant-hotels-21375410/

bombastix · 10/08/2024 13:00

Otherstories2002 · 10/08/2024 12:47

Not in a magistrates court it isn’t.

Correct. But let’s choose an example. Now in the mags, there is no jury.

Violent disorder is an either way offense. It can be tried in the mags summarily or tried in the Crown court on indictment.

You can enter a guilty plea, be sentenced in the mags and take a chance that the magistrate who does not have sentencing powers which are extensive will give a lower sentence. Or you can say not guilty and insist on a crown court trial.

its a decade since I did this so there is someone who might confirm this or not. But either way offences mean the defendant has this choice.

bombastix · 10/08/2024 13:01

TooBigForMyBoots · 10/08/2024 12:58

Well I’m just amazed. A slam dunk case. I’m even more amazed that she thought she could apologize her way out of it!

Lindos1 · 10/08/2024 13:05

BeachParty · 10/08/2024 12:38

I think he's great.
Feels like the grown ups are back in charge.

From reading most of the comments on this thread, I think I must be living in a parallel universe.
Five weeks in & I feel it's all quite frightening. The clamp down on free speech for starters. I believe we are living in very strange times...

bombastix · 10/08/2024 13:07

Lindos1 · 10/08/2024 13:05

From reading most of the comments on this thread, I think I must be living in a parallel universe.
Five weeks in & I feel it's all quite frightening. The clamp down on free speech for starters. I believe we are living in very strange times...

You mean you aren’t aware on what the law says in the UK on this? That has been in place for a long time

Jumpingthruhoops · 10/08/2024 13:09

So, Starmer's a good PM not because of what he knows but who he knows and because he has 'friends in high places'?

Hmm. Sounds almost like a Tory... 🤔

swimsong · 10/08/2024 13:12

hamstersarse · 10/08/2024 11:19

I can’t support and amazed anyone can support people being arrested and jailed for posting on social media.,

This represents a huge step back for democracy and freedom in the UK. Huge.

Why people think a government has the right to legislate what you say is beyond me. someone has been arrested and is in custody for sharing the false tweet about the Southport suspect. The first line said, ‘this might not be true…’ but still in custody. That is not reasonable at all.

Kier’s definition of ‘hate speech’ is going to be interesting given his view on sex. The feminist board is likely to come under his definition of hate speech. It might just take one incident of violence against a trans person…and off we go with a ‘swift response’

It can be argued that it's like someone falsely shouting fire in a crowded theatre, which results in a stampede and injuries and even fatalities..

It's actually much worse than that. It's more like someone standing up, pointing at an innocent group of people and accusing them of starting a fire "Everyone jump on them and beat them up".

Jumpingthruhoops · 10/08/2024 13:13

Lindos1 · 10/08/2024 13:05

From reading most of the comments on this thread, I think I must be living in a parallel universe.
Five weeks in & I feel it's all quite frightening. The clamp down on free speech for starters. I believe we are living in very strange times...

Same. He has ZERO leadership qualities. Let's get it straight: Labour only won because they're considered a bit less shit than the Tories. The End.

MasterBeth · 10/08/2024 13:14

Lindos1 · 10/08/2024 13:05

From reading most of the comments on this thread, I think I must be living in a parallel universe.
Five weeks in & I feel it's all quite frightening. The clamp down on free speech for starters. I believe we are living in very strange times...

There is no clampdown on free speech. There is a rightful intolerance of incitement to riot and threats to kill.

TooBigForMyBoots · 10/08/2024 13:15

Jumpingthruhoops · 10/08/2024 13:13

Same. He has ZERO leadership qualities. Let's get it straight: Labour only won because they're considered a bit less shit than the Tories. The End.

Yeah, the Tories were totally shit. I'm glad they're not the government anymore.Grin

Dreamingofgoldfinchlane · 10/08/2024 13:20

Jumpingthruhoops · 10/08/2024 13:13

Same. He has ZERO leadership qualities. Let's get it straight: Labour only won because they're considered a bit less shit than the Tories. The End.

Correct in Starmer having zero leadership qualities. That was clear years ago though so no surprises there.

RobinStrike · 10/08/2024 13:22

1dayatatime · 09/08/2024 18:58

I'll be more impressed when rape cases are sped up- currently taking an average of 20 months for non barrister cases and 5 years for barrister cases.

news.sky.com/story/crisis-in-barrister-numbers-as-average-wait-for-rape-victims-exceeds-five-years-13070171

The speed of bringing the rioters to court looks more like political capital for Starmer to be seen to be doing something rather than any real progress in the judicial system.

The whole point of speed during the riots is to remand people in custody and then to prison without giving him the opportunity to riot further. It's nothing to do with PR, or the speed of any other courts, purely to get the rioting under control. Did the same in 2011.

MasterBeth · 10/08/2024 13:23

Dreamingofgoldfinchlane · 10/08/2024 13:20

Correct in Starmer having zero leadership qualities. That was clear years ago though so no surprises there.

He has so few leadership qualities that he secured the leadership of a very Corbynite Labour Party then managed to lead his party to victory at the next general election, when the Tories believed they'd be in power for a generation.

Sugarlily · 10/08/2024 13:25

I think leadership is behaving as you’d expect others to behave, having integrity and values and sticking by them.

it’s not the bluster and lies of Johnson or Truss or Sunak.

A quieter decent person is far superior. See Obama vs Trump as an example

BeachParty · 10/08/2024 13:31

MasterBeth · 10/08/2024 13:14

There is no clampdown on free speech. There is a rightful intolerance of incitement to riot and threats to kill.

Exactly.

BeachParty · 10/08/2024 13:34

Lindos1 · 10/08/2024 13:05

From reading most of the comments on this thread, I think I must be living in a parallel universe.
Five weeks in & I feel it's all quite frightening. The clamp down on free speech for starters. I believe we are living in very strange times...

I don't see it as a threat to freedom of speech.
More of a clamping down of incitement on social media, which has had dangerous RL consequences (riots being one)