To think these riots are about anti-muslim feeling more than immigration....

[SaltAndVinegar2]

...and to wonder what the rioters actually think the solution is?

I mean there are plenty of Christian immigrants and no-one is attacking churches. Inner city churches are often mostly made up of ethnic minority and immigrant people

Just watched Ed Balls interview with Zarah Sultana.
ZS: "it's important to call out these riots for being islamophobic because mosques and muslims are being targetted"
EB: "do you agree we need to control immigration"
followed by constant interruption and not allowing her to actually say anything. He came across terribly. There have been 8000 complaints about this interview!

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/ed-balls-gmb-zarah-sultana-riots-b2591311.html

These rioters want to get rid of muslims whether British or immigrant - that is the unpalatable truth. It's not about immigrants in general at all, and only partly about the ones in the hotels. It's scarily reminiscent of what I've read about the early days of the 1930s in germany before Hitler came to power.

Not the post I quoted and replied to. I'm not going to ignore the fact that extremists across the world use the religion to spread hate and acts of violent against non Muslims.
^^See across the world. I was replying to a specific post, if people are going to use goings on abroad as a reason to hate on Muslims then surely they are understanding of people apply that to every other religion too.

So your immediate go to was to pick on Jewish people as an example?

Knowing damn well that we have had 10 months of virulent antisemitism including all over Mumsnet, and are at our lowest point?

Thank you for your considered response. There are also plenty of white wing British people who deny or minimise the holocaust. This is something I've been aware of my whole life. So we need to educate the small pockets of white society that do this too.

I think it's perfectly understandable that some Muslims have a complex relationship with our armed forces and aren't actively encouraging their children to join the army. I feel the same! There's no way I'd want my children to join the army. Partly because of fear for their safety but mostly because I disagree with a lot of the wars we get involved in. I don't want my children dying for another man's cause. I have very complex feelings regarding our foreign policy. I absolutely understand that military intervention is sometimes necessary. I can see when we've acted as a force for good in the world and I appreciate that. However, many times I feel we've got it wrong. The Iraq war for example happened because of a false belief that Iraq had weapons of mass distraction. I don't know any white British people who are enthusiastic about conflicts like this or want their children to risk their lives fighting these kinds of wars.

Regarding homophobia, in this country it is rightly considered a crime. Many people in this country are homophobic but laws exist to protect gay people. Homophobia exists in all religions, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam. I also know plenty of atheists who are homophobic! The penalties in some Muslim countries for homosexuality are abhorrent but don't think that all Muslims support the laws imposed by their oppressive regimes. For example, you might say the Taliban are a good example of why Muslims can't live in the UK. They've banned education for girls, they despise homosexuals. These values are at odds with our culture. Yet the majority of the people of Afghanistan don't support the Taliban! The second highest number of refugees come from Afghanistan. It's the same with the regime in Iran. People were enjoying their freedoms before the revolution and many are heartbroken by what's happened to their country. People in Iran are risking their lives to protest against it.

Like I said many Muslims have been here for generations but even the Muslims I've met who've arrived recently aren't trying to impose views on us that are at odds with out own. In my team I have colleagues from Iraq, Syria, Bangladesh and Palestine who've all arrived within the last two years. They've never said anything at odds with British values and they get on well with our gay manager and two Jewish colleagues. It's best not to assume they'll have the same views as their repressive governments.

I absolutely agree with you that there needs to be debate. Of course there are sometimes culture clashes - not only between Muslims and white British but between and within all communities. I welcome debate and interaction. I saw on Twitter today an Imam who'd welcomed in people from all communities to his mosque. He said they had a very open discussion and he said many tough questions were asked of him relating to women's rights, Sharia law etc but the fact is he wanted to answer them: https://x.com/adamkelwick/status/1822387948773368109 We need more of this.

My friend is an Imam who regularly opens the doors of his mosque to other communities because he wants to build bridges, foster friendship and understanding and counter misinformation. Most Muslims want this! Sadly, often the only white people who go are people like me! The ones who have a deep mistrust or dislike of Muslims (or just concerns, like yourself) avoid these events. They think "Eurgh Muslims" and don't go. It's hard to build understanding when some people have attitudes like this.

It was in response to others bringing antisemitism into this conversation as I clearly said in my post. I mean surely you have objections to dozens of posts on this thread 'picking on Muslims' given how you know damn well how Islamaphobia has been massively on the rise including on mumsnet over the past 10months? Why is it my post you are raising objections to? Why not the the posts before mine mentioning Jewish people or the post I quoted which said the same thing I did but about Muslims?

Because you specifically brought in blaming Jewish people and tried to make it about Israel /Gaza.

I wasn't the first to do that as you well know. Why aren't you asking them why it was brought into the conversation?

No. Just remarking that not many people pay £70k p.a in tax.

I haven't been on the thread for a few days, I saw your post. Are you saying I'm not allowed to call it out unless I first read and respond to 375 other posts first?

"Average income tax per household in the UK in 2021/22, by decile. In 2022, households in the top decile in the United Kingdom paid, on average, 55,641 British pounds in income tax, compared with the lowest income decile which paid around 999 pounds per year."

www.statista.com/statistics/813239/average-income-tax-per-household-uk/#:~:text=Average%20income%20tax%20per%20household,in%202021%2F22%2C%20by%20decile&text=In%202022%2C%20households%20in%20the,around%20999%20pounds%20per%20year

Interesting graph..

Based on income tax payments - 90% of households pay £14545 or less a year. 10% pay £55641 or more.

A wide gap of income then between a few who have a LOT of income and the rest

@SallyWD

Thank you for the response.

I think like any religion Islam is a broad church and there are those that actively try to bridge community divides and understand other's views. There are those Muslims (like Christians) that can raise a mirror to their own religion and criticise it.

However religions by definition wish to suppress those that look to be more questioning as many feel this dilutes belief and indeed suggesting a more liberal view as you suggest may be tantamount to heresy for some.

For religions to thrive you need rules and common behaviour of else it dissolves into a self determined spirituality. The rules of Islam do not align with the largely secular values of a western liberal democracy that has underwent a number of decades of female emancipation. I think this is the circle that can't really be squared for someone who is devout in faith (as undoubtedly some Muslims are) and we have the continued tension of possessing a set of values in direct contradiction to the host culture and indeed the law (allowing of homosexuality, equal divorce rights, allowance of blasphemy etc.etc.). Of course the same arguments apply to those devout of other religions and there is a similar disconnect.

Religions by their very nature aren't built for compromise when followed dogmatically and I think any history book reveals that. Muslims can't compromise on believing Mohammed received the word of God as a prophet for instance and if Mohammed received the word of God then it becomes virtually heresy if you compromise on that; such is the nature of authoritarian relgion.

I think therefore to follow a religion with set value set it is only feasible if you get a whole community 'buy in'. Therefore Muslims (some not all) will want to live in a society which reflects these values. There is a fear amongst non Muslims that an alteration of society would be the ideal for many of the Islamic faith.

It is also important to have the ability to question religion in a liberal democracy (good job the Catholic church were questioned about an earth centric view of the world for instance).

We should be able to state without fear of discrimination that there isn't a god (including Allah if that if this the name you wish to give)

We should be able to call out homophobia without religion being used as a shield

We should allow women to be not coerced into wearing clothing they may not choose our of free choice

Women of all faiths should be allowed to divorce freely.

A lot of devout people would find the above problematic.

With regard to the armed forces any country needs an armed force to defend the state in general and our armed forces have a proud history in defending Britian against an evil facist state. We should at least as a British people respect those that have given their lives in this endeavour so the representation of all faiths during remembrance day commendations is important.

We actually have a relatively low concern about Islam (20% are negative against Islam) compared to front European states and the US. In Italy, Spain, France and Holland for example there is a strong far right political presence which is at a greater level than the UK. When there seems to a universal question mark about the impact of Islam I agree with you that you can't shut down debate entirely with a call of Islamaphobe or racist (event though of course Islam is a religion not a race)

I hear what you're saying. I know you do mention other faiths as well but you still seem very focused on Islam. Many of the things you say about Islam can be applied to other religions so I'm not sure why the specific focus on Muslims. Many Hindus are homophobic for example, expect the women to dress modestly and divorce is taboo. I know this as I married into a Hindu family!

A society as complex as ours will never be completely harmonious. There will always be friction and conflict. I feel our country has been severely divided for years and I'm not talking about Muslims/immigrants versus the native Brits. I'm talking the tensions between those who voted Brexit and those who didn't. Those who blame all society's ills on immigrants and those who multiculturalism as a positive thing. The left wing and the right wing. The haves and have nots. Class wars, culture wars, call it what you will. It almost feels as if we're as divided as America. There are huge sections of society who are angry and disenfranchised. I feel so much more concerned by all this than the presence of Muslims. This is what's tearing us apart as a nation and I find it both frightening and sad.

You make interesting points about religion in a secular society but in a way, I feel you're over thinking it. The fact is there are around 4 million Muslims in the UK. The vast majority of whom are living good lives, working hard and contributing to society. The vast majority of whom appreciate this country and follow our laws. Where there is conflict, it must be addressed, I agree - but like I said, there's more conflict within the white British community than between different ethnic groups (in my opinion). I don't think I'd actually enjoy living in a purely secular society. I love the fact we have people and faiths from all over the world. It makes life more interesting.

I wanted to check your statistic that 20% of people viewed Muslims negatively so I googled and found this (maybe this was your source): www.moreincommon.org.uk/blog/how-prevalent-is-anti-muslim-prejudice-in-the-uk/

What struck me from the above study was that Muslims are far more likely than other groups to view their British identity as personally important. Muslims are also much more likely to say they're proud to be British than the wider public. This to me shows that Muslims are indeed embracing British values. It made me rather sad they experience such prejudice in return. The study also mentions the very negative portrayal of Muslims in the media and by politicians. To me, this needs to be very urgently tackled. This is at the root of the recent problems. This is why the rioters attacked Muslims and mosques.

You also mentioned the big question mark that many nations have over Islam. This to me proves nothing. It's prejudice pure and simple. For hundreds of years and in many different countries, there was/is antisemitism. Doesn't mean people were right to dislike jews! For hundreds of years white people believed they were superior to black people. Prejudice is deep seated and pervasive but we shouldn't think there's something in it if one particular group is being targeted.

Finally! All your posts have been based on your belief that there's a conflict between Islam and British society. What I don't understand is what you want to do about it. There are millions of Muslims who have been here for generations. They are British, this is their home. Obviously they're not going anywhere! In my opinion it would be a great loss to the country if they did. Do you want to limit the number of Muslims coming in from now on, or do you simply want to have open discussions about the issues that concern you? I can't actually tell what you think the solution is.

I'm flying to Asia tomorrow, an early flight and won't have roaming there. If I don't respond it's simply because I'm not online. I've found our discussions interesting so thanks for that. We shall definitely have to agree to disagree on some issues though.

Whilst we are in a debating mode, and I don't know any muslims, many people on X are asking why muslims are praying in the street in many countries when there are many mosques appearing provocative - but is there a simple answer to this.

On secular society - that isn’t feasible, but I do think a lot more attention should be focused on schools, courts, hospitals, etc ie state institutions. Those should be secular.

The UK transformed from a culturally strongly Christian country in the 1960s onwards and got rid of the Victorian morality that had gone along with it. Divorce, abortion, homosexuality, removal of the death penalty, physical punishment in schools, censorship. And despite s minority saying they would like to change these things it has never gone back, despite pressure from religious groups and some very ring wing people.

The one thing that really bothered me this year was the Micheala school. That was the JR about how far Islam should be accommodated in a school environment. That case should not have got off the ground; but it did. And eventually the right outcome was decided, which is that a head teacher can decide the policy and level, not a pupil. Obvious stuff. But the motivation behind that case was “more religion”. Schooling should be secular. I hope the government looks at this, because we are kidding ourselves if we don’t think that some people will use religious freedom as a method of division. That case proved it. Secular schooling would have meant it was a non starter.

The only Muslims I know drink beer, go to the pub, celebrate Christmas and couldn't give a shit about cartoons. I've heard posters on here say these people are not real Muslims. I know they self describe, box tick as Muslim though.

@Kendodd @Notaflippinclue Two great minds collide 💫

@SallyWD

I do think full loyalty to a state is important for any citizen and a recognition that armed forces are necessary for defence (and existence of the state as seen in Ukraine) is important. In many countries national service is mandated and there is a real expectation that due respect is given to armed force personnel past and present. I think the issue with Muslims is that in terms of foreign policy their views are in opposition in cases to our governments and this leads both to frustration with the government but also a worrying feel that they are also anti armed forces as an institutiin. A few more Muslims attending remembrance day parades or wearing poppies I feel would be really helpful in terms of showing a respect to our universal armed forces history and sacrifice. Holocaust minimization occurs with other groups, yes, but this still shouldn't be an excuse for it and Islam shouldn't be used a shield for this kind of anti semitism. Cloning Israel as an illegal state should also be condem ened.

I suppose the question of Muslims in the UK is when a Muslim not a Muslim. How many views in religous text and dogma can be watered down before ultimately a Muslim loses their identity and Islam becomes a more private faith with few shares collective bonds? (Obviously the same argument has been had in Christianity).

If there is compromise or acceptance on homosexuality does that mean compromises on hijab wearing, alcohol consumption, prayer frequency and nature etc as ultimately the views originate from the Koran and Islamic teaching? The erosion of certain dogmatic practises and non progressive beliefs has happened a great deal with Christians (those that are left). Post war liberalisation of society with sexual freedoms and equality associated with a loosening of religious influence is a defining characteristic of our society and one we take for granted.

A gradual erosion of the values associated and practises of religion in my view is the stepping stone into this path of liberalisation and of course if you are devout this path is one of concern. Many religions past and present use coercive control to ensure their followers do not start behave in a non religious way. I think Islam is in this position in the UK and many devout families fear western liberal influence and it's effect on future Muslim generations so do 'decouple' to an extent from society to protect their religion. One obvious protection mechanism is to demand intra faith marriage so children will be brought into the world almost certainly to follow Islam.

So ultimately we have a situation where we have followers of a religion (note religion not race) where is order to protect their religious identity and integrity they have to constantly combat external pressures and influences from the majority society (including law) to live in a different manner. Protection of Islam therefore results in many Muslims living in the same areas and creating social bonds mainly with fellow Muslims so that their community feels as Islamic as possible. Other religions would behave in the same manner of course.

It is this idea of parallel communities with different social attitudes and beliefs co existing that causes questions given him with has a history of one culture brutally suppressing others. The partition of India into India and Pakistan and the current devious tension in that huge country show what happens when societies cannot accommodate differing faith or culture.

humanity not him.

Can we please finally put to bed some of these awful myths about the Catholic Church when we are all on the floor trying to cope with the abuse scandals ( not that any one cares about us). Heliocentrism was first scientifically explored by Copernicus - he even gave a copy of his notes to a bishop who encouraged him to continue with his work. The issue was his calculations didn't tally with Ptolemy’s work on physics that they had scientifically proved - so they knew it needed to be revised. Gallileo ignored all of this then wrote a published document where he implied that the Pope said something he didn't - right at the time of the printing press that was publishing Protestant ‘mistruths’ as they saw it - not accurate interpretations of the original Aramaic as they knew there were issues with the Greek translations. Every bloody time there is a conversation about religion, something nearly always inaccurate about the Catholic Church gets thrown in as gospel.

And the most persecuted group across the world are Christians - we absolutely should be doing much more to help them as we brought Anglicanism over there.

And there is nothing new about the issue of integration in the UK when you come from a very different culture. We have many communities that have successfully managed it over the years here. The problem is the intense and microscopic focus on differences rather than similarities perpetuated by a kind of exceptionalism vocalised all the time in the media.

@YourFunLeader

Do you think I haven't had those experiences, too? whatever happens you have choice - choice on how to view your experiences, choices on whether to stay, choices to see if you are different somewhere else. I was born here and moved abroad - it’s not automatic that someone born here will feel it is the right place for them.

Whilst racism and prejudice are never right, we do have a difficult situation where one persons freedom impacts on anothers liberty in societies where individuals assert their rights. So there has to be give and take and movement to accommodate needs first. What one person sees as racist, another will see as ignorance and I’m not sure we can ever have a society where we can satisfy every ones spiritual, moral, economic and social needs as well as their differing cultural needs in the public sphere.

No, you are right, I haven’t. And I am very sorry that happened to you.

I’m not sure what we are arguing here - my point is that to have a well integrated society - one that protects those who need it when they need it and supports people as they move through the different stages of their lives requires us to think in terms of our common humanity and keep the cultural and religious aspects private. I think it is the only way we will be able to ensure that we protect everyone. Nobody’s real faith is impacted as this is not a new issue to deal with. For a long time we have had practising Jews in the UK who have a different holy day to Christians. That has been managed internally by the community. Its not perfect I’m sure, but I think the community weighs up the pros and cons and makes things work for them as they obviously feel there are other benefits in being here that they want to retain. Its give and take over things that are peripheral so that we can keep our focus on the really important things.