To think these riots are about anti-muslim feeling more than immigration....

[SaltAndVinegar2]

...and to wonder what the rioters actually think the solution is?

I mean there are plenty of Christian immigrants and no-one is attacking churches. Inner city churches are often mostly made up of ethnic minority and immigrant people

Just watched Ed Balls interview with Zarah Sultana.
ZS: "it's important to call out these riots for being islamophobic because mosques and muslims are being targetted"
EB: "do you agree we need to control immigration"
followed by constant interruption and not allowing her to actually say anything. He came across terribly. There have been 8000 complaints about this interview!

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/ed-balls-gmb-zarah-sultana-riots-b2591311.html

These rioters want to get rid of muslims whether British or immigrant - that is the unpalatable truth. It's not about immigrants in general at all, and only partly about the ones in the hotels. It's scarily reminiscent of what I've read about the early days of the 1930s in germany before Hitler came to power.

To add, I've been on the Gaza protests, nothing has changed. The UK government is still selling weapons to Israel (who I believe have every right to exist) that are being used on Palestinian civilians. Loads of Muslims on those demos, even though, for most of them, Gaza is absolutely nothing to do with them (or me).

There was a post on here where a Brazilian girl got attacked. I doubt its aimed at Muslims only. Its basically xenophobic. Thought the rioters, no doubt, would be unaware of this word.

@Kendodd "Does street protest (NOT riots) actually achieve anything?"

Regarding your question above, I'd say it is worth protesting. I went on the stop the war protest in 2003 and I did feel that particularly protest achieved nothing as the war still went ahead despite millions protesting against it! However, it was still worthwhile to show such strong opposition, I felt.

With the current anti-racism protests I absolutely think they're worth doing for many reasons:

1. Most importantly, these counter protests are providing tremendous reassurance to ethnic minorities that not everyone feels like the far right protesters and not everyone is against them. I can't emphasise enough how important this is. I'm friends with a local Imam and he's been having sleepless nights of the hatred and violence directed at Muslims. Several Muslims from his mosque have been physically and verbally abused. After the amazing displays of anti-racism on Wednesday night he feel so much better. He is able to say to his followers that the majority of Brits reject the far right sentiments and they need to stay calm and not react. All my ethnic minority friends and family felt reassured after Wednesday night. And not only them, I know white people felt reassured too. I certainly did. I'd also been having sleepless nights over the attacks on people of colour. I was very fearful for the direction our country was taking. Seeing so many people stand against this has made a huge difference to how I and others are feeling.
2. The counter protests send an important message to the far right protesters that we will not tolerate their racism and they do not speak for the majority of us. I keep hearing them say we all feel as they do. We do not!! They need to see that there are more of us than them. It deters them to hear this message.
3. The huge number of anti-racism protesters on Wednesday night actually stopped them reaching their targets. They wanted to target immigration centres and hotels housing asylum seekers. They simply couldn't reach them.
4. It's also a matter of principle. I have many people I love from ethic minorities, my husband, my children, my friends, my colleagues. In the past week I've seen them living in fear, too scared to leave the house. I'm simply not able to stay silent when they are being terrorised.

We'll have to see what happens over the weekend. The far right are planning to attack a hotel for asylum seekers near me but a huge counter protest is planned. I think the prison sentences and antiracism demos are deterring the rioters....Let's see.

If we are such an intolerant country then why do so many people feel keen to come here in some instances illegally? What is the attraction of the UK?

If we look across the world at economically string countries like the US, France, Italy, the Netherlands, China we see commonality in political attitudes towards Islam from Trumps hurried blanket ban to thr horrendous treatmentbof the Islamic minority in China.

Britain is a tolerant welcoming country but we need to take heed of growing political concern about immigration levels, and yes immigration was a major part of the last election campaigns.

Britons from a range of ethnicities from Rishi Sunak to Kemi Badenoch have campaigned on this issue and there was a widespread acceptance immigrationevels are to high. People are concerned not only about strains on public services but maintaining a balance in society to ensure social cohesion and a protect a respect of our great culture.

We cannot tar everyone that comments on immigration as being racist and it is alarming to see counter protectors holding signs up advocating untrammeled immigration. This is not feasible.

We cannot tar everyone that comments on immigration as being racist and it is alarming to see counter protectors holding signs up advocating untrammeled immigration. This is not feasible.

No but it's probably a sure thing that the people who make sweeping statements about 2bn people are bigots and they should be called out on it.

People are concerned not only about strains on public services but maintaining a balance in society to ensure social cohesion and a protect a respect of our great culture.

What do you mean by "our great culture"?

We cannot tar everyone that comments on immigration as being racist

"We" don't.

and it is alarming to see counter protectors holding signs up advocating untrammeled immigration. This is not feasible.

Do you mean the ones that read "Refugees Welcome"?

Has Britain not a great culture and history?

I asked what being English means. No one answered...

English means being a citizen of England

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/english#:~:text=English%20means%20belonging%20or%20relating,many%20people%20object%20to%20this.

Pretty much this?

Indeed, but is English culture?

Great culture means exactly that. The open, welcoming and tolerant culture that we have that seems to be completely lost on you Pandora. If you think the UK is intolerant, try moving to another country, especially an Islamic country, and see how you get on. I don't know anywhere else where you can turn up and get FREE housing, education and healthcare, and not just free but of excellent quality. If you don't pay into the system then maybe you care less about. If you pay in around 70k a year in tax like me then maybe you care more. It is the culture that was build by my grandparents who fought in the to defend this country. Again, that seems to mean nothing to you. And it's the culture that means that immigrants travel across Europe, bypassing other safe countries to get here.

And yes, everyone who does not say that immigration is an amazing thing and that we should all be grateful for immigrants doing the job us lazy Brits don't want to do (I disagree with this) then you are condemned as a racist. There is absolutely no room for sensible debate.

The signs "Refugees Welcome" are concerning because they are unqualified. Genuine refugees (i.e. the ones fleeing persecution are welcome). Economic refugees are not welcome.

I don't know anywhere else where you can turn up and get FREE housing, education and healthcare, and not just free but of excellent quality.

@winterrabbit Um how hard have you looked? This is not exclusive to the UK by any means. I find it bizarre that people are of the opinion that the UK is extraordinarily generous when it comes to asylum seekers. Or that the UK is some kind of hot-spot for asylum seekers when the numbers in countries like Germany, France, Spain, Iran, Turkey, Pakistan all dwarf the numbers in the UK.

It's a bit of a myth that the majority of migrants to Europe come to the UK. Many do because they speak English or have family connections but there are 4 other countries that take more immigrants than us. According to this Germany takes a hell of a lot more people than us, followed by Russia, Poland, France and then the UK worldmigrationreport.iom.int/what-we-do/world-migration-report-2024-chapter-3/europe#:~:text=Germany%20hosts%20the%20largest%20number,and%20the%20Syrian%20Arab%20Republic.
There are various other reports online, some put Spain and Italy above us but they all put the UK around number 5 in terms of how many immigrants it takes.
I love the UK very much but it's not quite the land of milk and honey you're claiming it to be. Other European countries have better infrastructures, health care, job markets etc.

I doubt many people pay £70k p.a in tax...

They are protesting because they want someone to blame for their lack of success- imho
Weather that be race related or just anti police.
They want to have a night getting pissed and kicking off with their mates and feeling like a leader in the disorder, it's pathetic

They don't care about the colour, age or gender of the cops they assault

They don't care about the subject they are meant to protest against, they just want a fight

The latest figures I've seen say that 8% of refugees who seek asylum in Europe come to the UK. Germany take millions, unlike us.
We need to get this message out because so many people are under the impression that the vast majority of asylum seekers end up in the UK. Simply not true.

@winterrabbit .

One thing I think that concerns people about immigration in general and specifically Muslim immigration is that there are those that benefit economically through seeking a better life in the UK but have no interest in adopting to many of our cultural norms and in many cases have an active disdain or even hatred of our country.

I will give exmaples:

the view that WW1 and WW2 were simply wars between colonizing powers that ultimately had negative impacts on the Islamic world. WW2 in particular is most prominent in the formation of the state of Israel and it's negative impact on the region (in their opinion). Holocaust minimization is a by product as it was thought the heinous event was exaggerated by the West when the Jewish people advocated for their own state.

there is an active dislike of our geopolitical stance in the world as our armed forces have been involved in combat against Islamic nations in recent decades and have Israel as an international partner. This leads to a lack of participation of acknowledgment of our nation's armed forces of history e.g. limited participation in remembrance day events etc.

A desire for an educational system that is aligned to a particular religion 's needs e.g. Single sex education with a religious focus (often with the aim of avoiding education about other religjons). There are also some that believe the history, English and geography currilcumus (amongst others) are sighted towards the UK with no regard for the culture of countries that were colonised or the Islamic world in general (why learn about Shakepear and the English reformation when you finely believe these are not in your culture or history).

A practice of a religion that is against secular western blues at core. Some immigrants are unhappy for instance that divorce is entirely legal as well as homosexuality and infidelity. Alcohol is freely available and there are no restrictions forcing women to wear clothes so lot to avoid the make gaze. Importantly We do not have blasphemy laws and We are free to critique religion and it's leaders and not belive.

We encourage women into the arts and sports and generally have a culture where men and women are treated equally domestically and in the workplace.

The concerns above I think are valid about the potential future imbalance of our society and the nature of immigration. It is not hate speech to debate the above.

Sweeping statements from you again, that are likely to make people feel pissed off with muslims. First of all, around 5.5 million Muslims fought for the British during the world war 2. 1.5 million muslims died suppprting the British: www.muslimwarmemorial.org/education/the-role-of-muslims-in-ww2/

How about acknowledging and appreciating their sacrifice, rather than the generalisations you're making?

The Muslims I know would be deeply offended to hear you say they minimise the holocaust.

Yep, I'm sure some Muslims aren't keen on our geopolitical stance but you know what, nearly every white British person I know isn't keen either! I attended the anti-Iraq war March in 2003 and millions of white British people were on the March saying "not in my name". Many of us are gravely concerned about what's happening in Palestine and Israel.

Some Muslims may choose single sex schools but so do some white British people. There was a thread recently with lots of people saying they wanted their daughters to go to single sex schools. Loads of Muslims go to mixed sex schools. My daughter's secondary school has a number of Muslims of both sexes, as does our neighbouring comprehensive. Our Muslim friends wanted to send their son to the excellent Jewish school around the corner. They have no bad feelings towards jewish people. In our community Muslims, Jews, white British, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists are all rubbing along nicely.

The many Muslims I know completely accept the laws of our land. They're not frothing at the mouth about gays or divorce. Our team at work is led by a gay man who's highly respected by our Muslim colleagues.

I know Muslim girls who are very much into sport and encouraged by their parents.

Look, I'm very supportive of frank and open debate. Of course it's not hate speech to discuss these issues. I'm sure there are problems in some communities. I support programmes that encourage integration and understanding on all sides.

However, every post I've seen from you starts with sweeping statements, very clearly aimed at Muslims and your perception that they're not integrating and have such archaic ideas. I can't speak for all Muslims in the UK but what you say is so far removed from what I see in my community. Many Muslims have been here for generations and are fully British. They are simply not fighting against us and our values as you claim. They want to live in peace and raise their families, like we all do.

@SallyWD

You make some very good points. I did not want to diminish the sacrifice of Muslim lives in WW2 but it can't be denied WW2 across North Africa was fought between two powers that were viewed with animosity. I think it is undeniable that Muslims do have a complex relationship with our armed forces and I do not know how many Muslim families are actively encouraging their children into the armed forces but I think it would be few. I have come across examples of holocaust minimization from some Mulsims as the holocaust was a motivation for the formation of the state of Israel and there are a few Muslims at the moment who are frustrated currently about the consequences of that.

I do not all Muslims do have the views I put forward above but I t would be disingenuous to think they are not held. Look at the penalties for homosexuality across the Islamic world and it would be a strength to think Muslims in the UK will be completely unconcerned about same sex realtionships. Harsh penalties for homosexuality are based partly or mainly on two-hour doctrine.

Look askance at the regime's of Islamic states across the world and I think the oppression within those countries maybe is a cause of concern about Islam in general. You say Muslims accept the law of the land which we all just but when laws do conflict with points within you religious dogma of course this causes tension and I say again there were some (but not all) Muslims that a find this state difficukt.

I do not wish to make blanket statements but we can't shut down debate about the nature of any religion which does impact society at large.

Please tell me where in the UK extremist Jews are causing problems?!!!!!

I do not wish to make blanket statements but we can't shut down debate about the nature of any religion which does impact society at large.

The stop doing it. It's really quite easy not to make blanket statements so I'm not sure why you keep doing it 'against your wishes'. There are some but not all Christians who are against abortion and gay marriage and even contraception do you find it concerning how difficult they find life in the UK? I think you would be surprised at just how many evangelical churches there are that are not fans of your 'British values'. Do you find Jewish courts and schools in the UK troubling? The illegal ultra orthodox schools that have been accused of beating children, arranging marriages and preventing children learning English?

If you don't wish to be seen as attacking Muslims perhaps you need to start posting more widely about all religions that 'impact society at large' and not just one.

Who said anything about the UK?

This entire thread is about the UK

Are you claiming that I don't pay 70k per year in tax?