To think these riots are about anti-muslim feeling more than immigration....

[SaltAndVinegar2]

...and to wonder what the rioters actually think the solution is?

I mean there are plenty of Christian immigrants and no-one is attacking churches. Inner city churches are often mostly made up of ethnic minority and immigrant people

Just watched Ed Balls interview with Zarah Sultana.
ZS: "it's important to call out these riots for being islamophobic because mosques and muslims are being targetted"
EB: "do you agree we need to control immigration"
followed by constant interruption and not allowing her to actually say anything. He came across terribly. There have been 8000 complaints about this interview!

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/ed-balls-gmb-zarah-sultana-riots-b2591311.html

These rioters want to get rid of muslims whether British or immigrant - that is the unpalatable truth. It's not about immigrants in general at all, and only partly about the ones in the hotels. It's scarily reminiscent of what I've read about the early days of the 1930s in germany before Hitler came to power.

I am agreeing with you? How can you take offence at that?

I'm not rising to it, it isn't worth it.

This is a very good post.

I'm not offended.

I think you have double standards at play.

Lone wolf terror attacks are the main MO we've seen for the past 10 to 15 years, going on the streets to protest those would be the equivalent behaviour to the far right. It's wrong and unhelpful, it stirs up tension. Muslim communities have condemned these. Muslim communities have asked for dialogue to understand and respond to "valid concerns".

By continually phrasing the BLM protests as "white" you are downplaying the involvement of Muslims in countering prejudice and violence.

I'm not sure why, but as I said I'm done. There's no point discussing something with someone blinded by confirmation bias.

How have a phrased BLM protests as white? I simply have not done that and they are not white protests. I have talked about the white people on these protests. I have talked about them because I think white people should be on these sort of protests, like last night. If white people are doing wrong, in the name of white people, I absolutely 100% think other white people should shout them down. Loudly and constantly, voices of hate should be drowned out and not ignored. There’s a great picture from last night in Brighton, tiny group of far right protesters, dwarfed by thousands of anti racist protesters.

The silence of the mainstream Muslim community after Batley and the "nothing to do with me" attitude has changed my attitude in turn.

If I see a racist abusing and threatening a Muslim in the street, of course I will step in. We stand up to bullies and protect the innocent, it's the right thing to do.

If I see a racist smashing the windows of a mosque, well, I'm sure they have insurance. "Nothing to do with me". I'm not risking my safety by identifying a thug to the police when it's a building, not a person, that's under attack.

And that's where it starts. Division and communities living in parallel. We are us and they are them. I always thought I was very liberal and I've lived in Muslim countries and have friends from those countries. I'm just being honest, my views have changed.

Well my views haven't changed, I will still be out on the street regardless. I'm not going to let hate filled racists talk for me. I'm a long veteran of protest though and remember demonstrating outside the South African embassy in the 1980s and being a member of the London Anti Apartheid group.
@CassieMaddox
How is it double standards to think that if white people do a terrorist attack, other white people should be out on the streets protesting and that if a Muslim does a terrorist attack other Muslims should be out on the streets protesting? These protests are to speak to our own communities (as much as anything imo) to say we're not having it.

Wtf is the "mainstream Muslim community" when it's at home? They are British. They are not a separate community.

Honestly. I cannot get my head around "lack of integration" on one hand and the concept of "mainstream Muslim community" on the other. Very odd.

Yeah, because I was talking about the white people on these sort of protests and how important it is (imo, I know plenty disagree) that they are there.

Respectfully, the very fact you even have to ask that question shows you know very little about what's going on across vast swathes of this country...

How would it be convenient to me? Don't understand

Let's hope the riots are over.

We do have to start to address the concern of Reform voters though without a virtuous sanctimony. We here a lot about the far right but from symmetry we do have a hard left. The hard left it could be argued are those that are over sympathetic to causes , groups and ideology where there should be concern.

Yes, we can acknowledge Muslims at an individual level are caring, hard working and generous but still withold the right to be able to contribute to a debate whether it is healthy for an effectively mediaeval religion to have a great influence on modern society.

We are an increasingly secular country with liberal values sitting historically on a Christian heritage and I risk being labelled as bigoted or right wing for stating such.

There are lements in British Muslim society that do wish a more Islamic society to reflect their views and culture and to some extent this is human nature. We all wish to be surrounded by people we relate to and a culture we respect and understand. I think it is reasonable to acknowledge this and debate the consequences.

There at least in my immediate view a failure to integrate with western liberal values and indeed a disdain or possibly even hatred of them (sympathy to Austrian swifties). It is not bigoted to recognise this or suppress debate by the blanket shout if 'Islamamphobe!'.

We are a liberal democracy with everyone a stakeholder in society so we can all have opinions on culture and the laws which rule us.

Not sure why you have shoe horned a reference to the cancelled Austrian TS concerts into a post about British Muslims?

I think it's a concern if a number of European countries.

And the "hard left" for "symmetry". Nah. Not interested in logical posturing really.

Mids2019. - agree totally.

Starmer was in a meeting thanking faith leaders and community leaders for their help bloody hell there's no hope for us poor white folks who weren't even invited - lock me up now

I think there is a mainstream British Muslim community, dominated by South Asians as the Turkish / Balkan types are largely cultural Muslims who follow some of the common teachings like not eating pork but are otherwise secular.

I agree with you that they lack a voice because they are diverse. One recognisable voice is the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB). Check out their response to the Batley school incident when you have time. They acknowledge that some bad actors will use it to stoke tensions, but their statements are almost entirely concerned with protecting Muslim children from having to see an offensive cartoon (which is offensive, no argument there). They strongly gave the overall impression that they didn't really give a fuck about the teacher who had been threatened and forced into hiding by extremists acting in the name of their religion and who felt isolated and suicidal, and were much more worried about some teenagers coming to harm from having to look at a picture that they wouldn't like.

A picture.

You might well argue that the MCB are a bunch of beardy religious types and probably not a good representation of the average British Muslim who works in a warehouse, has a barbecue on a sunny weekend, and listens to Ed Sheeran. But I don't remember seeing any condemnation of the extremist Muslim Action Forum, who assembled the protest, from any other Muslim organisation.

WTF MN?
Why did you delete @CassieMaddox post? She didn't even say anything offensive to me. Likewise, I didn't say anything offensive in the post of mine you deleted. I don't know why anyone would have reported it.
Even if it was offensive or a personal attack on me (it wasn't) I would rather it stand so others could see it.

Do all communities have their own leaders who speak to the police on behalf of the community members or just Muslims? Because it can’t be every which way and happy to be in ‘communities’ when it suits.

And I'm sorry but that response makes it sound like Muslims like me (Born in the UK, no criminal record, red-brick graduate, professional job, public sector and pay my taxes) deserve the islamaphobia we are experiencing.

The fact that a bunch of violent men who I've never thankfully met, went on a rampage on 7th October has nothing to do with me. Just as the subsequent massacre of tens of thousands of Palestinians has nothing to do with your average Jewish person in the UK.

I was called a "fucking muslim" the other day whilst pushing my baby in her pram around the city centre. It was completely unprovoked, I was minding my own business but a random man walking behind me, decided to repeat those words, very angrily over and over. Are you suggesting that I deserved it because of the atrocities that Hamas committed?

Half my family works in the NHS, one of my siblings got sent home the other day because the hospital she works in was close to a planned far-right demo. I wonder what this country would do if all the Muslims just stopped turning up to work in the NHS or other public sector jobs... because clearly no matter how hard we work, regardless of personal achievements and what we contribute to society, people like you will only ever look at us and say... "but Hamas..."

It's like me looking at a white person and saying "I'm sorry but I can't get over Jimmy Saville" or looking at a Christian and saying "I'm sorry but I can't get over Breivik". Do you see how stupid that sounds now?

If you are unable to separate Hamas from the average British Muslim then the problem is you and your prejudices.

Well said.