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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To blame Nigel Farage personally for this mess.

249 replies

twopercent · 07/08/2024 07:43

Some people are fundamentally unpleasant. We know that. Some people. a tiny minority, hold views that are unacceptable to general society. We had a system whereby they knew they were better off keeping their poison silent in their heads. Farage has given them a cloak of respectability, and a way of connecting with other likeminded psychos. And he has organised them. Now look where we are.

It is going to be interesting to see how many people convicted for these riots are the same people convicted in 2011. Some people will just jump on any excuse to join in and stir up disorder.

These people would be better off finding a sporting outlet for their energy and aggression, and learning to discipline it. But Farage has kicked it all up, purely because he needed personal supporters for personal power, and saw this demographic as an untapped source of numbers.

OP posts:
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DoIWantTo · 07/08/2024 14:32

@BeachParty I understand incitement very well. But you’ve not been incited to violence and rioting, neither have I. The problem is ordinary people have a limited ability to articulate their thoughts, opinions, worries and fears. When they’re unable to do that for whatever reason, they turn into knobheads that riot and when backed into a corner and demonised, they become even worse.

macaroniandcheeze · 07/08/2024 14:34

BiggerBoat1 · 07/08/2024 14:29

So much wrong in this. Asylum seekers are here legally. They have not come from safe countries. They are not all men. They have no obligation to stop in the first safe country they come to. Not everyone has the same, small-minded attitude about migration and many of us are very happy to support those who have come to this country legally and will go on to contribute to it both culturally and economically.

All of this, and the fact that in order to apply to stay in a country legally you need to be in that country already.

Tryingtokeepgoing · 07/08/2024 14:39

This is quite an interesting read:

www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-did-rioters-believe-the-lies/

TizerorFizz · 07/08/2024 14:40

To be fair, the right wing of the Conservatives are a problem and continued to, in effect, threaten Sunak, as they had Teresa May. They are disruptors and hound anyone more moderate. Interesting now that many of them now seek to be leader. I remember some very reasonable Conservatives. Brexit changed everything. It became open season on blaming others and ever increasing lies to gain political advantage. Social media has changed politics forever and is more influential than newspapers that are mainly read by older people.

The police need far more intel on agitators.

.

NotWhiteIsAColour · 07/08/2024 15:33

KTheGrey · 07/08/2024 14:13

Interesting point of view- do you think that in fact most of us kind of join a party or “left wing” or “right wing” set of beliefs exactly as people used to join a religion? Because that does seem to be the case to me - which “side” you align with defines the unsayable, but either way there are opinions that are treated as apostasy by political groups. I am a party political nomad and everything I believe is anathema to one side or the other.

No, I don't think so. I don't meant that people have replaced religion with a party and I don't think the UK population is political enough for individuals to be fanatic about a party. In fact, I suspect thst there are more floating voters now than previously. People whose families for generations voted only labour/conservative are now looking at which party makes them feel the best about themselves. Unfortunately, this is usually populistright wing parties as they are brilliant at finding a convenient low ranking scape goat (like immigrants, people on benefits, etc) without whom the UK would be a powerful, wealthy, important nation.

Hah I just read your post again and I'm not sure what I said is relevant to your post but I'll leave it just in case. Hopefully more to the point, I do think that there are certain beliefs and attitudes that are common to the left. I think the current right don't have that. In the past what did the Conservative Party in the uk or the republicans in the us stand for? Free market, rights of the individual, traditional family values, meritocracy, minimum state interference. I don't think the conservatives of the last 15 years care about that. Neither the party nor their supporters. I think now 'right' means populism. Whatever gets them votes. And what gets them votes now is the usual punching down and scape goating. And the far right have no values except for racism and a few other isms maybe. It's their sole raison d'etre. And they have jumped on this tragedy of three young girls being murdered to exploit it for their cause.

The last election was worryingly populist. It's not so much that people voted in labour but that they ousted the tories. The only party that I think really appealed to people was reform.

Sorry to finally actually reply: I mean people like Nigel farage have cleverly used some of the tactics that religions use, ie some tenets must not be questioned, aka the will of the people must not be questioned because to do so would be blasphemy against democracy. And democracy has been given the status of a religion except thst we don't live in a direct democracy and never have. And that is what everyone who voted for brexit has jumped on. Somehow the brexiter kingpins have managed to give the referendum result the status of the divine. Even labour never really dared to question the result of the referendum and there was surprisingly little about what a disaster brexit has been in their campaign. You might have noticed that brexiters never actually try to justify brexit in terms of any real or perceived benefits. It's always 'we won' as if that matters at all. It's like winning the only bullet in Russian roulette. And I'm not a die hard remainer. I think maybe there were some reasonable non racist, non britannica unchained reasons but we never got to hear about them. I always suspected that Jeremy corbyn might have held views (ie pro hrexit but not for bigoted reasons) like that but he was never allowed to voice them except for bees and beaches or something.

EasternStandard · 07/08/2024 15:44

I think it’s a policy thing and other countries that take another approach will avoid what is happening here

Menstum · 07/08/2024 16:43

@BiggerBoat1

Re read my post. I'm talking about those here illegally.

What's the purpose of borders, visas, passports if we welcome illegals, who are mostly men and who do come here from a safe country.

Menstum · 07/08/2024 16:45

@macaroniandcheeze

I guess you should stop reading the DM then.

cupcaske123 · 07/08/2024 16:57

Menstum · 07/08/2024 16:43

@BiggerBoat1

Re read my post. I'm talking about those here illegally.

What's the purpose of borders, visas, passports if we welcome illegals, who are mostly men and who do come here from a safe country.

It's not illegal to claim asylum and there's no obligation to claim asylum in the first safe country. One solution to the small boats is to allow people to make applications for asylum outside the UK.

Raasclaat · 07/08/2024 17:03

No. Whoever set that malicious news that the Southport killer was a muslim off the boats is who started all of this.

Lampzade · 07/08/2024 17:04

Menstum · 07/08/2024 16:43

@BiggerBoat1

Re read my post. I'm talking about those here illegally.

What's the purpose of borders, visas, passports if we welcome illegals, who are mostly men and who do come here from a safe country.

They are not actually ‘illegal’ until their papers have been processed and then are denied asylum.
The problem is the backlog of asylum cases.
The backlog is the fault of successive governments

BeachParty · 07/08/2024 17:06

Raasclaat · 07/08/2024 17:03

No. Whoever set that malicious news that the Southport killer was a muslim off the boats is who started all of this.

Do people not even bother to fact check now, though?
It's laughable that people like Nigel are saying stuff like "they're sharing stuff that isn't true, it's their fault" blah blah and deflecting blame.
It's your job to check before spreading!

Lampzade · 07/08/2024 17:08

ClareBlue · 07/08/2024 12:47

The real strange thing is that all those out rioting have more in common with the immigrant population than any other sectors of society. All of them are being screwed over by policies that benefit wealth concentration, globalisation and ensuring cheap labour to make the ruling elite richer.
If immigration stopped tomorrow the lives of those seen on the streets wouldn't improve one iota. It's a wealth distribution thing and how we want to be as a society, not an imigration thing.

Exactly
Divide and rule was the unspoken mantra of the previous government.
Let the ‘plebs’ fight among themselves whilst the ruling elite sit back and watch the shit show that they caused

Raasclaat · 07/08/2024 17:08

BeachParty · 07/08/2024 17:06

Do people not even bother to fact check now, though?
It's laughable that people like Nigel are saying stuff like "they're sharing stuff that isn't true, it's their fault" blah blah and deflecting blame.
It's your job to check before spreading!

The news spread like wildfire over twitter then a USA fake news website ran with it which gave to credence to many. Next thing you knew there were riots. Of course the rioters arent going to check it against multiple sources, they just know children dead, need a name, find an Asian name, go on the rampage. Didnt Lawrence Fox retweet it obviously without checking just to stir up hatred?

noblegiraffe · 07/08/2024 17:09

Lampzade · 07/08/2024 17:04

They are not actually ‘illegal’ until their papers have been processed and then are denied asylum.
The problem is the backlog of asylum cases.
The backlog is the fault of successive governments

The backlog is the fault of the previous Tory government who took the deliberate decision to stop processing claims and allow a backlog to build up.

They meant to do it.

Menstum · 07/08/2024 17:12

@Lampzade

That's laughable

The minute they step onto a dinghy they're illegal!

SallyWD · 07/08/2024 17:14

Raasclaat · 07/08/2024 17:03

No. Whoever set that malicious news that the Southport killer was a muslim off the boats is who started all of this.

It just provided the perfect excuse for these angry men to go on the rampage. They'd been desperate for an excuse. The seething hatred and resentment had been growing for years. I've seen a huge increase in racism in the last few years, particularly against Muslims. In the last few weeks we had the riots in Harehills, Leeds, which everyone blamed on Muslims despite it relating to a Roma family. Then there was the incident at Manchester airport where two Muslims got aggressive and a policeman kicked one in the head.
After the two incidents above I could tell people were frothing at the mouth about Muslims.
This misinformation about the killer of the three girls just gave them the green light to go mental. Everyone knew after a day or so that the killer wasn't Muslim and hadn't arrived on a small boat but they just didn't care. They wanted to beat people up and smash things. They're full of hate.

ladykale · 07/08/2024 17:16

Raasclaat · 07/08/2024 17:03

No. Whoever set that malicious news that the Southport killer was a muslim off the boats is who started all of this.

This logic is so problematic.

If the killer WAS a Muslim asylum seeker, please explain how it would justify torching asylum centres and dragging random non-white people from their cars?!

RayonSunrise · 07/08/2024 17:17

Can you imagine if Reform was in charge? They'd be rolling out the red carpet for these thugs, and inviting them to burn down whatever catches their fancy. Libraries? Schools? Courts? Supermarkets? Whatever they've decided to call "elite" today.

SallyWD · 07/08/2024 17:18

Menstum · 07/08/2024 17:12

@Lampzade

That's laughable

The minute they step onto a dinghy they're illegal!

That's simply not true. They're asylum seekers at that point. Check your facts before posting.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 07/08/2024 17:18

DoIWantTo · 07/08/2024 14:23

@XDownwiththissortofthingX because they can’t even articulate why they’re so angry. They’ve grabbed race and ran with it because they don’t have the ability to put what they’re feeling into words - it’s the same for the majority of people that react with violence and anger. They’re shitty people there’s no doubt about that, but they’re rioting on the base of race because they either do not have the intelligence to articulate their problems or they do not have the ability to recognise that their anger is a symptom of a much larger issue. So no, they’re not being heard or listened to. No one wants to listen to racist roger spouting shit about “them forriners” because people know it’s not the colour of someone’s skin that’s the issue and no one is going to listen to him while he insists that migrants and refugees are the problem.

Lacking the capacity to express yourself or even interpret your own anger is not the same as not being listened to.

There are plenty of elected representatives vocalising many of the same issues these people claim to be concerned about, so they can hardly claim not to be represented, or that their views are never discussed and talked about. Braverman, Patel, Farage, Anderson etc have all taken it upon themselves to have the supposed "difficult conversation" about immigration and cultural integration, and yet they are still very much the thin end of the wedge when it comes to popular opinion.

The fact that the majority don't agree with your viewpoint or share your concerns does not in any way excuse or explain resorting to riot and violence. I reject the notion entirely that far-right, racist, bigoted, and just plain old uneducated morons aren't "heard or listened to". On the contrary. They make a ton of noise, as do the people like Robinson/Yaxley-Lennon egging them on. Nigel Farage might as well be on the BBC payroll because he appears more often on their channels than most of their big salary employees. People have heard over and over what their supposed message is, and have largely rejected it. If you can not convince people with cogent argument, then that suggests your argument is less than cogent. Throwing a shitfit because the majority don't agree with you and are sick fed up of listening to you spouting ignorant bile is entirely on you.

If they are just grabbing on to race when race is clearly not the issue, then it begs the question what is at the root of their dissatisfaction. I don't think that's a particularly difficult question to answer, but what does appear to be impossible is figuring out how to get the disaffected to reach that conclusion by themselves. Unfortunately there is a point where education is not actually in the interest of the elite and ruling classes, and it serves to have a proportion of the "proles" living in ignorance. It certainly suits grifters and political opportunists, but they're not the ones who ultimately foot the bill for ignorance. No, it's ethnic minorities and the communities they live in.

I'm at the point whereby I think the government needs to give serious consideration to adding all far-right groups to the proscribed list purely to make it virtually impossible for anyone to consort with them openly, fund them, or permit them to gather in any way. And no, I'm generally against prohibiting protest and so on, but it's clear that this is nothing resembling a legitimate protest with legitimate aims, and is merely the product of far-right agitators stoking ignorance up to the point where it spills over into violence and riot, simply because they can't further their own argument using dialogue.

SocksAndTheCity · 07/08/2024 17:19

Menstum · 07/08/2024 17:12

@Lampzade

That's laughable

The minute they step onto a dinghy they're illegal!

Illegal under which law? There is no law that makes it illegal to seek asylum, so which specific crime do you think somebody is committing by stepping onto a dinghy?

Lampzade · 07/08/2024 17:20

Sorry to be a pedant but I think it is important to distinguish between misinformation and disinformation.
Misinformation is when falsehoods are spread unintentionally. Disinformation is what NF et al are guilty of which is deliberately spreading falsehoods in order to manipulate others

Raasclaat · 07/08/2024 17:20

ladykale · 07/08/2024 17:16

This logic is so problematic.

If the killer WAS a Muslim asylum seeker, please explain how it would justify torching asylum centres and dragging random non-white people from their cars?!

I think as PP said, it's been building for a while, then there was the head stomping at Manchester airport, there'd been the crossbow man the week before (who it was alleged was half Moroccon), the guy with the bodies in the suitcases, then the 3 murders of children just kicked things right off when it transpired (falsely) that a refugee was to blame.

Of course the riots arent justified at all. It's not a protest, it's mindless violence. Social Media has played a huge part in all of this, its so much more prevalent even than in 2011 with the last riots. Misinformation and hate abounds. Nigel is but one of many cogs in the wheel.

Lampzade · 07/08/2024 17:23

SocksAndTheCity · 07/08/2024 17:19

Illegal under which law? There is no law that makes it illegal to seek asylum, so which specific crime do you think somebody is committing by stepping onto a dinghy?

Was just about to say something similar.
Many people fail to understand that getting on a dinghy and seeking asylum does not make you ‘illegal’
You are deemed ‘illegal‘ when you apply for asylum and are denied, but continue to remain in the country