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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Michael Jackson

536 replies

C4tintherug · 03/08/2024 12:00

Why has Michael Jackson not been cancelled?

I don’t understand why a musical has been made out of his music, and why his music is played at school discos and is still everywhere.

After I watched the documentary where the men described how he raped them, I won’t listen to his music at all, in fact, I feel a sense of disgust when it is played publicly.

I don’t understand why we seem to have cancelled everyone else except him. Is it because he died before he was officially found guilty?

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10
kkloo · 10/08/2024 04:34

Firefly1987 · 10/08/2024 02:35

I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks his behaviour was acceptable even if he didn't abuse any kids. Question is did anything illegal happen, because nothing he admitted to is actually against the law. But he put himself in a very vulnerable position, now was that because he knew he wasn't doing anything wrong legally or was he just so arrogant he thought he was untouchable? I doubt we'll ever know.

I disagree because many who defend him are extremely harsh about the accusers and never acknowledge that MJ did anything wrong at all or that the men are potentially very traumatised individuals due to what happened.

There's no question mark for me at all about whether he was doing anything illegal.

Firefly1987 · 11/08/2024 07:20

@kkloo not on this thread I don't think? Obviously they'd be traumatised if something abusive happened, not everyone believes that to be the case though. Plus he was found not guilty. I don't believe Wade and James just because they made a documentary based on trying to shock people with absolutely no proof or facts whatsoever. In fact getting important details wrong like saying abuse happened in a train station that didn't exist until James was 16+ completely blowing the theory out of the water that MJ dropped kids after a certain age and was only interested in prepubescent boys.

Wade wanting (begging) to do the MJ Cirque du soleil show and not getting it and suddenly the allegations start raises peoples eyebrows a bit too...plus why would someone who was abused want to dance to his music all day?

Mirabai · 11/08/2024 09:22

I don't believe Wade and James just because they made a documentary based on trying to shock people with absolutely no proof or facts whatsoever. In fact getting important details wrong like saying abuse happened in a train station that didn't exist until James was 16+ completely blowing the theory out of the water that MJ dropped kids after a certain age and was only interested in prepubescent boys.

WR and JS trying to shock people? What a morally repugnant thing to say.
MJ fans cling on to the station thing but in fact there were several stations on that pretend railway line built at different times. Inventing stuff to discredit victims is really twisted. And memories are fallible - remembering precise locations and dates of abuse that took place 30 years previously is notoriously tricky.

kkloo · 11/08/2024 09:23

Firefly1987 · 11/08/2024 07:20

@kkloo not on this thread I don't think? Obviously they'd be traumatised if something abusive happened, not everyone believes that to be the case though. Plus he was found not guilty. I don't believe Wade and James just because they made a documentary based on trying to shock people with absolutely no proof or facts whatsoever. In fact getting important details wrong like saying abuse happened in a train station that didn't exist until James was 16+ completely blowing the theory out of the water that MJ dropped kids after a certain age and was only interested in prepubescent boys.

Wade wanting (begging) to do the MJ Cirque du soleil show and not getting it and suddenly the allegations start raises peoples eyebrows a bit too...plus why would someone who was abused want to dance to his music all day?

There was at least one earlier but it may have been deleted.

It sounds like you're saying that you don't think that it would be psychologically or emotionally abusive to make a little child the centre of your world, share the intimacy of a bed etc. and then ditch them afterwards for a younger boy? Do you not think that that could cause trauma?

I think regardless of sexual abuse that that alone IS abusive.

I don't really care if he was found not guilty, at least some of the jury reckon he was a pedophile but that the evidence just wasn't strong enough, which tends to be true for many sexual abuse cases, most don't ever lead to convictions, doesn't mean that the jury didn't think they did it or that the person wasn't actually guilty.

Also most victims of child abuse don't have any proof or facts, just their word. Do you not believe any of them either?

He did drop them after a certain age, he dropped them as his main target, after that it sounds like he just tried to keep the boys sweet and make them think that they still had a very special relationship/bond.

Your last question shows that you just don't understand grooming. Victims of it will often have extremely complex relationships with their abusers. They could love and hate them. They could be angry with them and also feel sorry for them. They could wish they never met them while also wishing they could be with them. They could know that what happened was wrong and fucked them up but also be jealous if he did it to others and that they weren't 'special' like they thought.

saidthebellsofstclements · 11/08/2024 09:46

Firefly1987 · 11/08/2024 07:20

@kkloo not on this thread I don't think? Obviously they'd be traumatised if something abusive happened, not everyone believes that to be the case though. Plus he was found not guilty. I don't believe Wade and James just because they made a documentary based on trying to shock people with absolutely no proof or facts whatsoever. In fact getting important details wrong like saying abuse happened in a train station that didn't exist until James was 16+ completely blowing the theory out of the water that MJ dropped kids after a certain age and was only interested in prepubescent boys.

Wade wanting (begging) to do the MJ Cirque du soleil show and not getting it and suddenly the allegations start raises peoples eyebrows a bit too...plus why would someone who was abused want to dance to his music all day?

The train station thing means nothing.
I had to give a statement to the police recently about something that happened over 25 years ago, my friend also had to give a statement.. we were told not to speak to each other about it beforehand and just recall what we have remembered.

I said.. There was a fight outside a restaurant. He was wearing a blue top and had blonde hair.

My friend said.. There was a fight outside of a pub, he was wearing a blue top and had blonde hair.

Neither of us is lying, it's an old memory but was consistent enough for a charge and trial to take place.

My point being that, Micheal Jackson's victims may get small details (like locations) wrong but child after child has told the world consistently that they have been abused. That is evidence!

ObelixtheGaul · 11/08/2024 09:59

kkloo · 11/08/2024 09:23

There was at least one earlier but it may have been deleted.

It sounds like you're saying that you don't think that it would be psychologically or emotionally abusive to make a little child the centre of your world, share the intimacy of a bed etc. and then ditch them afterwards for a younger boy? Do you not think that that could cause trauma?

I think regardless of sexual abuse that that alone IS abusive.

I don't really care if he was found not guilty, at least some of the jury reckon he was a pedophile but that the evidence just wasn't strong enough, which tends to be true for many sexual abuse cases, most don't ever lead to convictions, doesn't mean that the jury didn't think they did it or that the person wasn't actually guilty.

Also most victims of child abuse don't have any proof or facts, just their word. Do you not believe any of them either?

He did drop them after a certain age, he dropped them as his main target, after that it sounds like he just tried to keep the boys sweet and make them think that they still had a very special relationship/bond.

Your last question shows that you just don't understand grooming. Victims of it will often have extremely complex relationships with their abusers. They could love and hate them. They could be angry with them and also feel sorry for them. They could wish they never met them while also wishing they could be with them. They could know that what happened was wrong and fucked them up but also be jealous if he did it to others and that they weren't 'special' like they thought.

Edited

Spot on. I think the reason people have more trouble with accepting Jackson as a paedophile than Saville is because we've got this image of a 'child catcher' figure, terrifying their victims into silence after coldly and brutally abusing them. Saville fits that image. Jackson doesn't. Jackson isn't any less of an abuser because he groomed his victims into loving him instead of fearing him. He just used a different technique. The mental damage he did to those boys, not just through physical abuse but emotional manipulation was evident in the documentary.
There's more than one way to silence a victim, and one is to make them believe the abuse is not abuse, but a special thing that others wouldn't understand.

Mirabai · 11/08/2024 10:16

I agree, although to me MJ is an archetypal “child catcher” too with his Neverland and endless macabre Disney kitsch - all the better to lure kids.

But you’re absolutely right that MJ manipulated his victims into silence by making them believe they were loved and special rather than scaring the shit out of them.

MJ has a global army of fans who think they love him, a big family and an infrastructure of corporate investment in his work. Savile was just a lonely old perv whom it turned out no-one particularly liked.

Firefly1987 · 11/08/2024 19:42

Mirabai · 11/08/2024 09:22

I don't believe Wade and James just because they made a documentary based on trying to shock people with absolutely no proof or facts whatsoever. In fact getting important details wrong like saying abuse happened in a train station that didn't exist until James was 16+ completely blowing the theory out of the water that MJ dropped kids after a certain age and was only interested in prepubescent boys.

WR and JS trying to shock people? What a morally repugnant thing to say.
MJ fans cling on to the station thing but in fact there were several stations on that pretend railway line built at different times. Inventing stuff to discredit victims is really twisted. And memories are fallible - remembering precise locations and dates of abuse that took place 30 years previously is notoriously tricky.

But there's no facts in the entire thing, usually a documentary is supposed to be balanced, and with some proof! And they even claimed some other kids as victims who had to come out and say nothing happened. It was all done to shock and repulse people and it worked at first until people looked into it more and thought hang on...Hmm
even Dan Reed had to backtrack on the train station thing and say oh James got the dates wrong he was actually older...

No one is inventing stuff they're fact checking, which I'm sure you hate, we should just take every single allegation as truth without even a trial.

kkloo · 11/08/2024 20:02

@Firefly1987
Documentaries are not supposed to be balanced at all. They're not trials. Most documentaries aren't 'balanced'. They pick a side and perspective.

And as I already said most victims of child abuse don't have proof. It is just their word.

Firefly1987 · 11/08/2024 21:09

@kkloo well in that case people are perfectly within their rights to not believe what the documentary is trying to sell.

EternalSunshine19 · 11/08/2024 21:14

Some people are too big to be cancelled. His music, his influence on pop culture as a whole just can't be cancelled. Also his been dead for 15 years and nothing was ever proven, so pretty hard to cancel him now

Firefly1987 · 11/08/2024 21:22

@Mirabai I agree, although to me MJ is an archetypal “child catcher” too with his Neverland and endless macabre Disney kitsch - all the better to lure kids.

He didn't need to lure kids with that stuff, he was famous you know? Not only famous but he was the biggest star in the world, it's hardly like he needed to go to all the bother of building a theme park when most kids would've jumped to spend time with him. It was Jordie's father who first asked MJ to give Jordie a call as a favour as he'd helped MJ out when his car broke down. He might hold zero appeal to you but kids in the 90s who were fans would've done anything to meet him, I'm sure Neverland was cool and all but it's laughable you think he needed all that stuff to get kids to spend time with him. You must be super young if you missed all the mania around MJ.

Also more adults than ever have very childlike hobbies that I happen to think are a bit sad but if that's what they want to do that's up to them doesn't mean they're trying to lure kids!

Mirabai · 11/08/2024 21:40

Firefly1987 · 11/08/2024 19:42

But there's no facts in the entire thing, usually a documentary is supposed to be balanced, and with some proof! And they even claimed some other kids as victims who had to come out and say nothing happened. It was all done to shock and repulse people and it worked at first until people looked into it more and thought hang on...Hmm
even Dan Reed had to backtrack on the train station thing and say oh James got the dates wrong he was actually older...

No one is inventing stuff they're fact checking, which I'm sure you hate, we should just take every single allegation as truth without even a trial.

The documentary was a factual account of their interface with MJ.

Police have training in this country that in cases of historic abuse and indeed current sexual offences, memories can be fallible on dates and places but that doesn’t affect the veracity of the account of abuse.

Some people use a detail about train station to discredit JS’s entire account. It’s usually mad MJ fans and paedophile apologists. What’s your excuse?

Michael Jackson
Mirabai · 11/08/2024 22:49

You must be super young if you missed all the mania around MJ.

I’m 53. I thought he was a pervy sqeaky freak then and I was right. He wasn’t cool he was just really weird.

I was into Prince and hiphop, not some weird little man running after children.

kkloo · 11/08/2024 22:57

Firefly1987 · 11/08/2024 21:09

@kkloo well in that case people are perfectly within their rights to not believe what the documentary is trying to sell.

I never said that everyone had to believe it.

Also more adults than ever have very childlike hobbies that I happen to think are a bit sad but if that's what they want to do that's up to them doesn't mean they're trying to lure kids!

Do they just have childlike hobbies? Or do they have childlike hobbies and invite kids into their homes and to sleep in the same bed as them also? Bit of a difference.

Firefly1987 · 12/08/2024 02:01

@saidthebellsofstclements I don't get it, one of you described a pub when it was in actual fact a restaurant or vice versa? Yeah that's completely understandable and nothing like what James alleges. He said he was molested multiple times in one place when in actual fact it didn't exist until after 1992 when he claimed the abuse ended. It's not a small detail it completely throws out the idea MJ dropped kids once they were a certain age and wasn't interested in anyone but young boys. Not only that but James' description of abuse happening in the train station was meant to be at the very start of it happening, so being 16 at the time does not tie in with that at all.

@Mirabai yep the personal attacks always start sooner or later don't they. I was a fan, like I've been a fan of lots of artists and bands. So I've read the evidence over the years and I'm just not convinced either way. My "excuse" is there is far too much misinformation on both sides to ever know the truth of what happened. What's your excuse for defending a CONVICTED baby killer on the LL thread? Why are you not angry that an evil bitch tortured and killed babies? Do you think it's only ok to question evidence as long as the accused isn't a suspected paedophile? You ignore the mountains of evidence against her.

I’m 53. I thought he was a pervy sqeaky freak then and I was right. He wasn’t cool he was just really weird.

So you were too old then-not a kid whilst he was in his prime so you don't get the appeal he had at the time to these kids and somehow think he needed to build a fairground to get them to spend any time with him. Despite the fact he's always said "I've never invited them into my room they always ask to stay with me"-not that he should've allowed it of course. Yeah he was weird, he hardly had a normal upbringing did he, he had to act like an adult at eight years old and experienced violence at the hands of his father who admitted to whipping him.

@kkloo It sounds like you're saying that you don't think that it would be psychologically or emotionally abusive to make a little child the centre of your world, share the intimacy of a bed etc. and then ditch them afterwards for a younger boy? Do you not think that that could cause trauma?
I don't know if any of that is true as I have no idea how often he spent time with them or the nature of their friendships. How do we know he ditched the boys? Some he remained friends with and some would lose interest in him no doubt as they grew older. And they continued to speak very highly of MJ until they came out with the allegations, so do Culkin, Feldman etc. to this day. Wade and James did not at any point up until then say they were traumatised by their friendship with MJ. If they suffered any trauma it's most likely to be from having messed up home lives and shit parents.

Your last question shows that you just don't understand grooming. Victims of it will often have extremely complex relationships with their abusers. They could love and hate them. They could be angry with them and also feel sorry for them. They could wish they never met them while also wishing they could be with them. They could know that what happened was wrong and fucked them up but also be jealous if he did it to others and that they weren't 'special' like they thought.

I'd probably believe Wade and James if they just wanted to tell their story, but no Wade wants over 1 billion dollars from Jackson's estate! James wants money too. Blaming his estate and trying to get money out of it just smacks of greed. They had their chance for justice whilst he was alive, of course you would question someone who stands to gain millions and millions from people believing their allegations. They know they can't get justice now from the person that allegedly hurt them, or ever see them in jail, or get money off them whilst they were alive-but being a multi-millionaire now MJ is dead will help? OK then.

kkloo · 12/08/2024 02:26

@Firefly1987

I don't know if any of that is true as I have no idea how often he spent time with them or the nature of their friendships. How do we know he ditched the boys? Some he remained friends with and some would lose interest in him no doubt as they grew older. And they continued to speak very highly of MJ until they came out with the allegations, so do Culkin, Feldman etc. to this day. Wade and James did not at any point up until then say they were traumatised by their friendship with MJ. If they suffered any trauma it's most likely to be from having messed up home lives and shit parents.

Feldman actually said that he experienced the 'standard grooming process' that Robson and Safechuck describe and that everything was similar up until the sexual abuse part.
And said it raised questions for him So was he grooming me and I just never ended up being his pick? Or was that just who he was?,” the actor said. “That’s the f*ing thing. We’ll never know. But I would have been exactly his type. I was cute, short and blond. You know?”

I'd probably believe Wade and James if they just wanted to tell their story, but no Wade wants over 1 billion dollars from Jackson's estate! James wants money too. Blaming his estate and trying to get money out of it just smacks of greed. They had their chance for justice whilst he was alive, of course you would question someone who stands to gain millions and millions from people believing their allegations. They know they can't get justice now from the person that allegedly hurt them, or ever see them in jail, or get money off them whilst they were alive-but being a multi-millionaire now MJ is dead will help? OK then.

Different culture though, Americans often try to sue for millions or billions.
They didn't know when he was going to die either did they. They also might not have wanted him to go to jail as they might have felt guilty which again is common with victims of grooming.

Mimaulka · 12/08/2024 02:31

I think he probably did molest kids,
I also think he was developmentally stunted, whilst this doesn't make it okay I dont think he was in full control of his mental functions the way any regular adult would be, which I suppose greys it in some ways. You see it a lot on those videos of people who hunt down people talking to people pretending to be teens online, they don't seem to be altogether...there?

I dunno, I'm not a fan of his music so it's not something I tend to think about

saidthebellsofstclements · 12/08/2024 07:56

bellsofstclements I don't get it, one of you described a pub when it was in actual fact a restaurant or vice versa? Yeah that's completely understandable and nothing like what James alleges. He said he was molested multiple times in one place when in actual fact it didn't exist until after 1992 when he claimed the abuse ended. It's not a small detail it completely throws out the idea MJ dropped kids once they were a certain age and wasn't interested in anyone but young boys. Not only that but James' description of abuse happening in the train station was meant to be at the very start of it happening, so being 16 at the time does not tie in with that at all.

@Firefly1987
Yes one of us said a pub one of us said a restaurant, I've no idea who was right but that didn't matter to the police.
Memory (especially trauma memories!) can be unreliable.
Details like what part of house you were abused in can be sketchy.
It doesn't make his story false at all!
Look up trauma and what it does to the brain, what you should be focusing on though is.,,
The consistent stream of children who say they were abused.
The full grown man who along with being a prolific liar (I didn't have plastic surgery!!) Also said in front of the world he loves sleeping with children,

Mirabai · 12/08/2024 08:20

Mimaulka · 12/08/2024 02:31

I think he probably did molest kids,
I also think he was developmentally stunted, whilst this doesn't make it okay I dont think he was in full control of his mental functions the way any regular adult would be, which I suppose greys it in some ways. You see it a lot on those videos of people who hunt down people talking to people pretending to be teens online, they don't seem to be altogether...there?

I dunno, I'm not a fan of his music so it's not something I tend to think about

@Mimaulka

I also think he was developmentally stunted, whilst this doesn't make it okay I dont think he was in full control of his mental functions the way any regular adult would be, which I suppose greys it in some ways.

You could say that about any paedophile.

Mirabai · 12/08/2024 08:37

@Firefly1987

yep the personal attacks always start sooner or later don't they. I was a fan, like I've been a fan of lots of artists and bands. So I've read the evidence over the years and I'm just not convinced either way. My "excuse" is there is far too much misinformation on both sides to ever know the truth of what happened. What's your excuse for defending a CONVICTED baby killer on the LL thread? Why are you not angry that an evil bitch tortured and killed babies? Do you think it's only ok to question evidence as long as the accused isn't a suspected paedophile? You ignore the mountains of evidence against her.

There was no personal attack I merely objectively characterised the 2 principal types of people trying to discredit the victims - of which you fall into the fan category.

No idea why you’re bringing LL into this, but I’ve never commented on her as a person, simply on the highly dubious medical and statistical claims on which that case is founded - as now covered by the New Yorker, Telegraph, Guardian, The Week, Private Eye, National Review, C5 documentary etc.

CosmicDaisyChain · 12/08/2024 09:07

In more than one case children were not actually invited to his house by him. Their parents met him then practically thrust their children at him.

Americano75 · 12/08/2024 09:11

Mirabai · 11/08/2024 22:49

You must be super young if you missed all the mania around MJ.

I’m 53. I thought he was a pervy sqeaky freak then and I was right. He wasn’t cool he was just really weird.

I was into Prince and hiphop, not some weird little man running after children.

Ditto. I'm 49 and never got it either.

saidthebellsofstclements · 12/08/2024 10:14

CosmicDaisyChain · 12/08/2024 09:07

In more than one case children were not actually invited to his house by him. Their parents met him then practically thrust their children at him.

Where did you hear this rumour, from the really honest freak show of a man who never had plastic surgery?
He groomed the parents (who by the way are compute morons)
He is so obviously a pedophile!

CosmicDaisyChain · 12/08/2024 10:19

saidthebellsofstclements · 12/08/2024 10:14

Where did you hear this rumour, from the really honest freak show of a man who never had plastic surgery?
He groomed the parents (who by the way are compute morons)
He is so obviously a pedophile!

Until his car broke down and a certain Chandler parent stopped to offer assistance, he had not met their child. That's not a rumour. It's fact.

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