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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To say the Olympics hates women

629 replies

ArabellaScott · 03/08/2024 10:30

A child rapist performing for the Netherlands.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olympics/article-13674293/Convicted-child-rapist-Steven-van-Velde-Netherlands-booed-volleyball-olympics.html

Males punching women in the face as sport.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/articles/cnd0drjr4jdo

Offensive caricatures of women everywhere.

https://glaad.org/french-drag-artists-made-history-as-first-in-drag-to-carry-the-olympic-torch/

Convicted child rapist Steven van de Velde reaches volleyball last-16

Convicted child rapist Steven van de Velde received a hostile reception again as he was loudly booed by the crowd during the Netherlands' volleyball defeat against Norway on Friday.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olympics/article-13674293/Convicted-child-rapist-Steven-van-Velde-Netherlands-booed-volleyball-olympics.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
28
Tandora · 04/08/2024 20:07

Rustnot · 04/08/2024 20:07

It should probably be site rules that you shouldn't be allowed to post hate in the way that you're posting. HTH.

100%

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 04/08/2024 20:08

Rustnot · 04/08/2024 20:07

It should probably be site rules that you shouldn't be allowed to post hate in the way that you're posting. HTH.

What hate?

Rustnot · 04/08/2024 20:08

Didn't condone the slur.

Actually made your point really..shouldn't be one rule for one and different for another. You don't want to be insulted on the Internet- don't insult other people on the Internet.

TeaGinandFags · 04/08/2024 20:08

ArabellaScott · 03/08/2024 11:25

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/articles/c51y123k0w3o

'Van de Velde's inclusion in the Dutch team has been criticised by women's and safeguarding groups.
He is not staying in the Olympic village and will not do any post-match media.
There was extra security around him when he arrived in Paris with the rest of the team.
In previous interviews with Dutch media, Van de Velde said: "I can't reverse it, so I will have to bear the consequences. It has been the biggest mistake of my life."

I expect his victim also resents having to bear the consequences of his 'mistake'.

His only "mistake" was getting caught.

Everything else he did, he meant to do.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 04/08/2024 20:09

Rustnot · 04/08/2024 20:08

Didn't condone the slur.

Actually made your point really..shouldn't be one rule for one and different for another. You don't want to be insulted on the Internet- don't insult other people on the Internet.

Where am I insulting people on the internet?

Tandora · 04/08/2024 20:09

Tandora · 04/08/2024 20:04

You didn’t just call them male ,
you said they had a penis and invited people to voyeur their genital area.

That boxer is legally female. It’s been reported that she was raised female since birth. From what we know it’s likely that the test that was done was to test chromosomes- which found XY.

All the evidence suggests this boxer is raised female but has a DSD. Saying she has “a penis” , and inviting people to scrutinise and judge her genitals, is literally the most personal, hurtful and degrading thing you could do in this context. (Think judging and mocking someone for their disability as a point of reference).

im going to say this again.

All the evidence suggests this boxer is raised female but has a DSD. Saying she has “a penis” , and inviting people to scrutinise and judge her genitals, is literally the most personal, hurtful and degrading thing you could do in this context. (Think judging and mocking someone for their disability as a point of reference).

And this doesn’t just go for what you said. It goes for all people judging and mocking this boxer.

Rustnot · 04/08/2024 20:10

@GargoylesofBeelzebub my personal opinion which I'm sure you disagree with is that your posts about Imane Khelif are insulting, degrading and hateful.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 04/08/2024 20:10

I am not in any way mocking them. Please show where I did.
I merely shared footage of their own actions which show to the world they have a penis.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 04/08/2024 20:11

Rustnot · 04/08/2024 20:10

@GargoylesofBeelzebub my personal opinion which I'm sure you disagree with is that your posts about Imane Khelif are insulting, degrading and hateful.

You're entitled to your opinion you're not entitled to your own facts.

EvangelicalAboutButteredToast · 04/08/2024 20:11

Tandora · 04/08/2024 20:04

You didn’t just call them male ,
you said they had a penis and invited people to voyeur their genital area.

That boxer is legally female. It’s been reported that she was raised female since birth. From what we know it’s likely that the test that was done was to test chromosomes- which found XY.

All the evidence suggests this boxer is raised female but has a DSD. Saying she has “a penis” , and inviting people to scrutinise and judge her genitals, is literally the most personal, hurtful and degrading thing you could do in this context. (Think judging and mocking someone for their disability as a point of reference).

It’s is not the fault of the general public that this individual was raised thinking they were female. There will have been a point where it became evident that they were actually male. It’s obvious they have been living as a male in their home country as they haven’t been wearing the religious garments that females are expected to wear as part of their religion/culture. Their social media shows a child who presents as female and then an adult who is clearly now male presenting. I assume this shift happened as a result of a male puberty.

Tandora · 04/08/2024 20:14

EvangelicalAboutButteredToast · 04/08/2024 20:11

It’s is not the fault of the general public that this individual was raised thinking they were female. There will have been a point where it became evident that they were actually male. It’s obvious they have been living as a male in their home country as they haven’t been wearing the religious garments that females are expected to wear as part of their religion/culture. Their social media shows a child who presents as female and then an adult who is clearly now male presenting. I assume this shift happened as a result of a male puberty.

they haven’t been wearing the religious garments that females are expected to wear as part of their religion/culture

really? We are going to do this now? Police her clothing/ religious garments to judge her sex/ gender? Mumsnet do better.

there is a legitimate policy debate to be had about inclusion criteria in female sports. This is not it.

Rustnot · 04/08/2024 20:15

@GargoylesofBeelzebub entitled to my own facts? I've made it quite clear that I don't believe anyone has enough facts about this individual to pass any particular comment. I'm not debating the issue, as you may have noticed. But quite frankly I have found your posts nasty and belittling and someone needs to call you out on it.

I'll say it again, if you're going to take great offence against one person insulting and demeaning you on the Internet, don't do it to someone else, and especially don't do it when you don't have all the facts (of which you're not entitled to your own either FYI).

Rustnot · 04/08/2024 20:17

@EvangelicalAboutButteredToast pretty sure what you wear is not indicative of your biological sex.

Tandora · 04/08/2024 20:17

Never again will I let “gender criticals” silence me from talking about people with DSDs in conversations about trans issues . You all have shown your true colours. You’ll come after both sets of women , exactly the same way and you’ll conflate the two , because neither group conform ls to your ideals about sex/ gender.

Tandora · 04/08/2024 20:18

Rustnot · 04/08/2024 20:17

@EvangelicalAboutButteredToast pretty sure what you wear is not indicative of your biological sex.

Boom. 💥

SinnerBoy · 04/08/2024 20:18

Rustnot · Today 20:02

And yet you're happy to comment again and again, post pictures etc in a vicious attack against another human being...

A few weeks ago, I found a slug on my shoe. I was subjected to a vicious, hate fuelled attack by a mollusc.

In the same way that posting a piece of highly informative, public footage was.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 04/08/2024 20:19

Rustnot · 04/08/2024 20:15

@GargoylesofBeelzebub entitled to my own facts? I've made it quite clear that I don't believe anyone has enough facts about this individual to pass any particular comment. I'm not debating the issue, as you may have noticed. But quite frankly I have found your posts nasty and belittling and someone needs to call you out on it.

I'll say it again, if you're going to take great offence against one person insulting and demeaning you on the Internet, don't do it to someone else, and especially don't do it when you don't have all the facts (of which you're not entitled to your own either FYI).

It is not insulting and demeaning to show TV footage of someone's own actions that shows they are lying. Especially when the consequences could be fatal for females.

The facts are ALL pointing clearly towards this person being male, a cheat, a woman beater.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 04/08/2024 20:21

Rustnot · 04/08/2024 20:17

@EvangelicalAboutButteredToast pretty sure what you wear is not indicative of your biological sex.

Well that's funny because that's the only evidence that the side that says the boxer is female has. Pictures of them dressed in a female manner as a child.

Rustnot · 04/08/2024 20:23

@GargoylesofBeelzebub as I said, it is my opinion that your posts are of that nature, and I know that you disagree.

The reality remains that you do not have all of the facts. That is not debatable.

There is a way to habe this debate, which is a legitimate but incredibly complex conversation, without it being so hateful. In my opinion. However, I am sure you will continue to conduct yourself in the way that you see fit.

EvangelicalAboutButteredToast · 04/08/2024 20:23

Tandora · 04/08/2024 20:14

they haven’t been wearing the religious garments that females are expected to wear as part of their religion/culture

really? We are going to do this now? Police her clothing/ religious garments to judge her sex/ gender? Mumsnet do better.

there is a legitimate policy debate to be had about inclusion criteria in female sports. This is not it.

You are obviously very passionate about this subject. I’ve seen you on pretty much all of the threads covering this subject and you seem to be very upset. A previous poster has said there will be a press conference tomorrow so I’ll be very interested to see what gets said. From my POV I think it’s very obvious they are male but if they can prove they are female through the appropriate testing I will happily apologise.

Tandora · 04/08/2024 20:23

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 04/08/2024 20:19

It is not insulting and demeaning to show TV footage of someone's own actions that shows they are lying. Especially when the consequences could be fatal for females.

The facts are ALL pointing clearly towards this person being male, a cheat, a woman beater.

All facts are pointing to this person being a cis woman with a DSD. She participated in the sporting match as she was legally allowed to do , as she met the inclusion criteria. She did nothing wrong.

Whether her DSD should prohibit her from qualifying for female boxing is a legitimate debate.

Calling her names- like liar, cheat, a woman beater etc - and publicly scrutinising her genitals is wholly unacceptable. (And that’s the most polite word I could use).

TipsyJoker · 04/08/2024 20:23

Ladyzfactor · 03/08/2024 11:10

The boxer that everyone is upset about isn't a man. They are intersex. Completely different. They are not, and have never been trans, or male. They were born biologically with female genitalia. They do tend to have more testosterone., but not much else different. But mumsnet loves to get upset over trans issues so I'm not surprised about the misinformation.

Males with 5-ARD do not have a uterus or other female internal structures, but they do have what looks like a vagina, so are often sexed as females. However they are males with normal testes, which produce typical male hormones. Those hormones, among other things, prevent the development of female internal reproductive structures (like the uterus and cervix).

In embryonic development, we all start out with two sets of primordial duct systems, one set that will develop into the male internal reproductive stuff (the Wolffian ducts, which become the epididymis, vas deferens and seminal vesicles), and another that develops into the female internal stuff (the Müllerian ducts, which become the upper part of the vagina, cervix, uterus and fallopian tubes, pic at the end).

In males, fetal testes don't only produce testosterone! They also make Anti-Mullerian Hormone (AMH), which is crucial for getting rid of the Mullerian ducts, and thus, ensuring that the eventual uterus, etc. don't develop. If there's no testes and no AMH, that female internal stuff will develop.

Males need high levels of T for male-typical development of all the male reproductive structures. Without T production and action, the external (penis and scrotum) and internal (described above) genitalia won't develop. But as I wrote in my monster tweet yesterday, T alone isn't enough for development of the penis and scrotum (and prostate): for that, T must be converted into DHT (a more potent androgen, production pathway below), and people with 5-ARD don't make the necessary enzyme to carry out that conversion. So they end up with what appears to be a vagina.

FYI, some males inherit a genetic mutation that means they can't produce AMH. They are typical males, but have a nonfunctional uterus and fallopian tubes inside their abdomen. The condition often not discovered until adulthood (it's called Persistent Müllerian Duct Syndrome). AMH is an important hormone for males, but hardly anyone even knows it exists.

Also, the testes generally don't descend into the scrotum before birth (as usual) without DHT, but they often do at puberty when testosterone levels reach high concentrations. So males with 5-ARD may be "sexed" as female, due to the female-appearing external genitalia.

But brain and the rest of the body are typically male. Most people with the condition will "transition" to living as a male once they realize they are male, and this often happens at puberty, when the testes descend and the body develops in a typically masculine way.

EvangelicalAboutButteredToast · 04/08/2024 20:24

Rustnot · 04/08/2024 20:17

@EvangelicalAboutButteredToast pretty sure what you wear is not indicative of your biological sex.

You’re right, it’s not, but using what’s written on someone’s passport is also not proof of sex. So let’s do the appropriate testing and make sure women’s sport is fair.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 04/08/2024 20:25

All facts are pointing to this person being a cis woman with a DSD.

Are you conveniently forgetting the two independent tests carried out by court of sport arbitration labs, the results of which have now been shown that say the boxers are male?

NamelessNancy · 04/08/2024 20:26

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 04/08/2024 20:21

Well that's funny because that's the only evidence that the side that says the boxer is female has. Pictures of them dressed in a female manner as a child.

You've forgotten the passport. That's the definitive proof surely?

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