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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To say the Olympics hates women

629 replies

ArabellaScott · 03/08/2024 10:30

A child rapist performing for the Netherlands.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olympics/article-13674293/Convicted-child-rapist-Steven-van-Velde-Netherlands-booed-volleyball-olympics.html

Males punching women in the face as sport.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/articles/cnd0drjr4jdo

Offensive caricatures of women everywhere.

https://glaad.org/french-drag-artists-made-history-as-first-in-drag-to-carry-the-olympic-torch/

Convicted child rapist Steven van de Velde reaches volleyball last-16

Convicted child rapist Steven van de Velde received a hostile reception again as he was loudly booed by the crowd during the Netherlands' volleyball defeat against Norway on Friday.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olympics/article-13674293/Convicted-child-rapist-Steven-van-Velde-Netherlands-booed-volleyball-olympics.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
28
AccidentallyWesAnderson · 05/08/2024 14:04

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 14:02

@AccidentallyWesAnderson if you read my posts you would see that I have said I don't think transgender women should participate on women's sport. That doesn't mean I support transphobic comments.

What transphobic comments?

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 14:07

@BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator as I gave said, I don't feel that I know enough about DSD and the long term impacts on somebody's biology to form a proper opinion. I avoided posting an opinion for that exact reason.

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 14:09

@AccidentallyWesAnderson any transphobia in general, in real life, on mumsnet, elsewhere on the Internet. You seem very keen to deny the existence of it!

BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator · 05/08/2024 14:10

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 14:07

@BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator as I gave said, I don't feel that I know enough about DSD and the long term impacts on somebody's biology to form a proper opinion. I avoided posting an opinion for that exact reason.

That is why I asked theoretically about a specific example - someone who has XY chromosomes, male levels (not high female levels) of testosterone, and has been through a male puberty. Who - let's say for this example - is not taking any anti-androgen meds and continues to have male levels of testosterone.

They would not meet current athletics rules, should this theoretical person be allowed to take part in a combat sport?

GoadyMcBigot · 05/08/2024 14:11

@GargoylesofBeelzebub

The testing have shown they are male with male chromosomes and male testosterone levels. So not women

that is categorically untrue. If it were that simple then we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

as per IOC: "The Algerian boxer was born female, was registered female, lived her life as a female, boxed as a female, has a female passport”

the far bigger issue is abusive pricks suddenly deciding they are female to either access women’s safe spaces, gain sporting benefit or to act out their repulsive fantasies.

i am not going to be complicit in nasty bullying and vilification of another woman who was born differently

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 05/08/2024 14:11

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 14:09

@AccidentallyWesAnderson any transphobia in general, in real life, on mumsnet, elsewhere on the Internet. You seem very keen to deny the existence of it!

I'm just asking you for examples! It's not difficult (or shouldn't be). I'm not the one stating transphobia is prevalent on Mumsnet. You are. Provide examples or stop stating shit.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 05/08/2024 14:16

If I were a female with no DSD, and I failed two independent tests that led to being disqualified by my sporting body, I'd be kicking up merry hell and submitting myself for a cheek swab and displaying it for all to see.

These two boxers, one didn't bother appealing and the other did and pulled out. When female safety and fairness is at stake, people have the right to question this and probe this further.

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 14:16

@AccidentallyWesAnderson you're being quite rude, so I won't be responding further to your posts. You can believe I'm 'stating shit' if you want to. I disagree.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 05/08/2024 14:18

GoadyMcBigot · 05/08/2024 14:11

@GargoylesofBeelzebub

The testing have shown they are male with male chromosomes and male testosterone levels. So not women

that is categorically untrue. If it were that simple then we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

as per IOC: "The Algerian boxer was born female, was registered female, lived her life as a female, boxed as a female, has a female passport”

the far bigger issue is abusive pricks suddenly deciding they are female to either access women’s safe spaces, gain sporting benefit or to act out their repulsive fantasies.

i am not going to be complicit in nasty bullying and vilification of another woman who was born differently

Have you seen the IBA press conference today. There very clear the results show they are MALE.

BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator · 05/08/2024 14:18

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 05/08/2024 14:16

If I were a female with no DSD, and I failed two independent tests that led to being disqualified by my sporting body, I'd be kicking up merry hell and submitting myself for a cheek swab and displaying it for all to see.

These two boxers, one didn't bother appealing and the other did and pulled out. When female safety and fairness is at stake, people have the right to question this and probe this further.

Hell, if I was a male with a DSD who was convinced that offered me no advantage over genetic females, I'd be fighting it. Like Caster did (though Caster lost, so... make of that what you will)

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 05/08/2024 14:19

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 14:16

@AccidentallyWesAnderson you're being quite rude, so I won't be responding further to your posts. You can believe I'm 'stating shit' if you want to. I disagree.

I don't care. Don't state what you can't back up. Makes you look foolish.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 05/08/2024 14:19

*they're

BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator · 05/08/2024 14:20

Quite from the press conference on now:

Dr Ioannis Filippatos: 'I cannot say to you if she was born woman. The medical result, blood results and the laboratories say that this boxer is male. I've seen the results. We are not against Khelif, she is a fantastic boxer.

Our problem is that we have two lab results with karyotype of male, this isn't my answer, this is answer from the laboratory.

What happens sometimes, we hear of abnormalities in medicine... In this case, we need the boxer to co-operate with the doctor. The problem is not about Khelif, a very good boxer, but as a doctor, I need to protect the woman's category.

BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator · 05/08/2024 14:21

*quote

TheKeatingFive · 05/08/2024 14:22

Taiwanese and Algerian boxing federations apparently expressly denying the IBA permission to share any further details from the testing of their athletes.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 05/08/2024 14:24

TheKeatingFive · 05/08/2024 14:22

Taiwanese and Algerian boxing federations apparently expressly denying the IBA permission to share any further details from the testing of their athletes.

Quelle surprise.

nietzscheanvibe · 05/08/2024 14:25

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 13:14

@Helleofabore sorry what is wrong with stating quite simply that people with DSD don't experience puberty in the same way? And what is wrong with citing some simple and easily digestible information from the NHS which explains this..

Before my post above I haven't actually posted an opinion on the issue at hand.

What I will stand firm by is that the transgender issue is different and the article that you posted talks about transgender athletes. They are not the same as athletes with DSD. That is a fact. So conflating the two is wrong.

You say that [transgender athletes are not the same as athletes with DSD] so conflating the two is wrong.

But as I pointed out on another thread...

"These athletes are not trans but, for the IOC, whose "inclusive" policy is to allow transwomen (biological males) to compete in women's categories (if their individual governing bodies allow it), banning these two boxers for being XY would mean they would have to ban all transwomen from all women's sports, because they would be effectively admitting that male biology does confer unfair advantage. The extent to which [transgender] politics is influencing the IOC's statements should not be underestimated."

The two things are not being conflated, the trans aspect is a critical factor in the debate because transwomen are also biological males, as are these two athletes, according to tests which they have both declined to challenge.

GoadyMcBigot · 05/08/2024 14:32

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 05/08/2024 14:18

Have you seen the IBA press conference today. There very clear the results show they are MALE.

The IBA was kicked out of Olympics last year - a decision that was appealed by rejected by sport’s arbitration court. IBA are run by Russians, have ulterior motives in trying to categorise Imani Khelif as a man and have left Olympic boxing in a mess.

so I’m not paying attention to what they say. It’s like listening to Nigel Farage saying there are no racists in the UK and believing him.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 05/08/2024 14:34

@GoadyMcBigot the tests were done in two separate independent laboratories ratified by the WDA and the CAS. The WBO also have seen them and say these are males. Your whataboutery is pathetic.

TheKeatingFive · 05/08/2024 14:35

GoadyMcBigot · 05/08/2024 14:32

The IBA was kicked out of Olympics last year - a decision that was appealed by rejected by sport’s arbitration court. IBA are run by Russians, have ulterior motives in trying to categorise Imani Khelif as a man and have left Olympic boxing in a mess.

so I’m not paying attention to what they say. It’s like listening to Nigel Farage saying there are no racists in the UK and believing him.

The testing was done by the CAS, which is the same organisation that runs the doping tests. Are you saying that isnt valid.

Neither athlete appealed the results. The appeal would have been to the CAS not the IBA. Why do you think that is?

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 05/08/2024 14:35

If these two boxers are female then they would be taking a test and showing it to the world. We know why they're not doing that.

Helleofabore · 05/08/2024 14:38

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 13:47

If by my own personal preferences, you mean that I would prefer people didn't make hateful comments about individuals, or make personal attacks towards others, then yes I agree with you.

Excellent, so people expressing their displeasure at your opinions should also be allowed.

Or is it just your opinion that counts.

Helleofabore · 05/08/2024 14:47

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 14:07

@BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator as I gave said, I don't feel that I know enough about DSD and the long term impacts on somebody's biology to form a proper opinion. I avoided posting an opinion for that exact reason.

I am not sure how much clearer we can be.

The same studies that have been done on males with transgender identities are studies done on males who have gone through any degree of male puberty. They are on the testosterone effects on the male body, receptive to androgenisation, and their competitive advantage.

The exact same studies are therefore directly applicable for male people with DSDs that process testosterone and therefore go through any degree of male puberty.

Hence the OUTCOME is the same. Both groups have testosterone driven male advantages over female people in sport.

The articles and studies that I posted that you refer to are not discussing male people with DSDs who DON'T process testosterone.

Therefore what I posted is directly relevant to male people with DSDs that go through any part of male puberty. ie. they process testosterone. As an example of one that is entirely relevant , they even mention 5ARD. And if you would like, I will go and find, or here is a thought, you could go and find it, the recent studies that show that the male puberty that 5ARD male athletes go through deliver exactly the same result as a male with out a DSD. In fact, it has now been shown that they should be able to achieve the same as any other male athlete.

Your discomfort in me or others stating that the outcome is the same for males with DSDs that go through male puberty, does not change the facts. I am not the one saying this, I am posting the experts in their fields saying this. It is not my opinion!

ie. to be extra clear, I am not 'conflating' the issue. Perhaps you are trying to argue philosophically against the hard physical science. But I am posting the physical science that is accurately relevant to the issue. Not my opinion!

GoadyMcBigot · 05/08/2024 14:47

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 05/08/2024 14:35

If these two boxers are female then they would be taking a test and showing it to the world. We know why they're not doing that.

no, The banned organisation IBA arranged the tests. And they did so on a very specific and politically motivated basis.

Imeni Khelif has undergone all necessary tests for Olympics. Why are you wanting a woman - who has assigned woman at birth - to humiliate and degrade herself further (probably to men)?? That’s repulsive.

So you feel free to carry on bullying this women. I will save my energy to fight against the type of males I listed earlier who are the ones doing the real damage to women.

BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator · 05/08/2024 14:49

Minor point, but I'm so tired of reading "woman at birth". No girl is a woman at birth!