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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To say the Olympics hates women

629 replies

ArabellaScott · 03/08/2024 10:30

A child rapist performing for the Netherlands.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olympics/article-13674293/Convicted-child-rapist-Steven-van-Velde-Netherlands-booed-volleyball-olympics.html

Males punching women in the face as sport.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/articles/cnd0drjr4jdo

Offensive caricatures of women everywhere.

https://glaad.org/french-drag-artists-made-history-as-first-in-drag-to-carry-the-olympic-torch/

Convicted child rapist Steven van de Velde reaches volleyball last-16

Convicted child rapist Steven van de Velde received a hostile reception again as he was loudly booed by the crowd during the Netherlands' volleyball defeat against Norway on Friday.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olympics/article-13674293/Convicted-child-rapist-Steven-van-Velde-Netherlands-booed-volleyball-olympics.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
28
GargoylesofBeelzebub · 05/08/2024 12:24

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Is this sarcasm? Because we have the Paralympics.

In order to be inclusive of all we have to have exclusive categories. Otherwise every event will be won by young able bodied men.

It boggles my mind that people don't understand this.

Snippit · 05/08/2024 12:24

Jamazon1 · 03/08/2024 11:20

There is no third sex. We are all either male or female but some people have DSDs which can result in a misleading understanding of sex as observed at birth. However, puberty often reveals sex and if you’d like a short explanation of the most likely situation with the boxers I recommend Dr Emma Hilton, a developmental biologist, on this topic. Her tweet is a clear, concise explanation
https://x.com/fondofbeetles/status/1819402288789590246?s=61&t=LmSDFyNSIBPuRNMSw7oXlQ

Really interesting, very informative.

Helleofabore · 05/08/2024 12:24

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 12:22

@Helleofabore literally posted a whole article about transgender athletes in sport. It has no relevance.

@Allthegoodnamesarechosen please don't start attacking me too. Completely unnecessary to post in your tone.

What article to you refer to?

I believe that all the papers and articles I have posted relate to puberty and TESTOSTERONE.

BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator · 05/08/2024 12:25

x.com/alessandraaster/status/1820370435634024635?s=46

"Tell me why the first proposition makes sense but the second one is absurd. This could make a first year logic exam.

We have sex categories but we are not allowed to do a sex test.
We have weight categories but we are not allowed to weigh the athletes."

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 12:26

@Helleofabore your posts at 11:03 and 11:16

TheKeatingFive · 05/08/2024 12:32

BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator · 05/08/2024 12:25

x.com/alessandraaster/status/1820370435634024635?s=46

"Tell me why the first proposition makes sense but the second one is absurd. This could make a first year logic exam.

We have sex categories but we are not allowed to do a sex test.
We have weight categories but we are not allowed to weigh the athletes."

This captures the absurdity of it all very well

ArabellaScott · 05/08/2024 12:36

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 05/08/2024 12:24

Is this sarcasm? Because we have the Paralympics.

In order to be inclusive of all we have to have exclusive categories. Otherwise every event will be won by young able bodied men.

It boggles my mind that people don't understand this.

I assumed that was a pisstake?

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 05/08/2024 12:44

Just to make it very clear David Handelsman said this in 2022

Question: does testosterone suppression get rid of the natural advantage males have?

It is important to remember that what we are talking about here is the unfair advantage so the objective is to eliminate it not just reduce it. But complete testosterone suppression has now be shown in a number of studies to not to fully nullify the advantages in males, in physical advantages for up to three years.

Suppression of testosterone is partially effective. It won’t change bones. They remain longer and stronger. Haemoglobin will change, but the key things muscle, heart and lungs virtually don’t change. Or they change very little, maybe 10 - 20% reduction. But 80% of the male physical advantage remains . So it is virtually incomplete, and no where near completely reversing male unfair advantage.

More on testosterone suppression:

The key thing is whether the male physical advantage is removed over a certain time. And the answer is there is no duration which removes the unfair male physical advantage of male bodied athletes in female events. The data shows that you can get some reversal, but no where near complete and therefore there remains an unfair advantage.

This is relevant for ANY male athlete, whether it is a male with a DSD or a male with a transgender identity. Any person attempting to portray David Handelsman's opinion as being anything different, clearly has never listened to him and wishes to misrepresent what he has stated very clearly.

Why? Because since his paper in 2018 there have been numerous studies that has meant he, a world leading testosterone professor, has now got a more informed opinion,

And for the umpteenth time, the use of clear language in this discussion means that uninformed people will keep misinterpreting studies and papers because they dismiss the relevance of the evidence because they mistakenly believe that a male person with a DSD that includes virilisation of their body in any degree is still a 'female'.

They are male.

The information posted about male people with pubertal advantages applies to them just as much as a male who declares they have a transgender identity who has had any response to testosterone.

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 12:53

But people with DSD don't necessarily experience typical puberty, so there is a difference between people with DSD and those who are transgender and so the two shouldn't be conflated.

TheKeatingFive · 05/08/2024 12:55

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 12:53

But people with DSD don't necessarily experience typical puberty, so there is a difference between people with DSD and those who are transgender and so the two shouldn't be conflated.

I'm not sure where this is coming from. If males have testes, regardless of whether these are visible at birth, they go through the same testosterone surge in puberty as any other male.

Helleofabore · 05/08/2024 12:58

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 12:53

But people with DSD don't necessarily experience typical puberty, so there is a difference between people with DSD and those who are transgender and so the two shouldn't be conflated.

What part of male people with DSDs that include virilisation of their body (ie any part of male puberty) is unclear?

Pippa246 · 05/08/2024 12:59

TheKeatingFive · 04/08/2024 18:27

None of the pictures doing the rounds are relevant. People can present/dress as they like, it's irrelevant to the sex they actually are. Only testing will clarify that.

I agree to a point. Yes people can dress how they like but these men are effectively choosing when to be female. Dressing as men is evidence they “have not always been thought of as women”. And testing has clarified their sex - they are male.

Helleofabore · 05/08/2024 12:59

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 12:53

But people with DSD don't necessarily experience typical puberty, so there is a difference between people with DSD and those who are transgender and so the two shouldn't be conflated.

Would you please post any evidence that you have at all that supports your position?

Helleofabore · 05/08/2024 13:02

TheKeatingFive · 05/08/2024 12:55

I'm not sure where this is coming from. If males have testes, regardless of whether these are visible at birth, they go through the same testosterone surge in puberty as any other male.

Indeed.

I also now wonder with the multiple studies now available of advantages that male children have over female children whether he would even now say that children up to 12 can compete fairly between the sexes. I would expect not.

TheKeatingFive · 05/08/2024 13:04

I don't think it's appropriate to treat female sport as a consolation prize for males with medical issues anyway. Regardless of what those medical issues are.

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 13:04

The NHS has some nice concise information about DSD, which is quite easy to understand which also quite clearly states that people with DSD, be they male or female, do not necessarily experience puberty in a typical manner. Which makes sense, because after all, it is differences in sexual development.

TheKeatingFive · 05/08/2024 13:07

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 13:04

The NHS has some nice concise information about DSD, which is quite easy to understand which also quite clearly states that people with DSD, be they male or female, do not necessarily experience puberty in a typical manner. Which makes sense, because after all, it is differences in sexual development.

Isn't that (mostly) down to the fact that they are expecting the puberty symptoms of one sex and what they get is very different?

Regardless, female sport shouldn't be offered up as consolation for males who develop abnormally.

Helleofabore · 05/08/2024 13:09

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 13:04

The NHS has some nice concise information about DSD, which is quite easy to understand which also quite clearly states that people with DSD, be they male or female, do not necessarily experience puberty in a typical manner. Which makes sense, because after all, it is differences in sexual development.

That is your evidence?

I suspect that you don't have a good grasp of the different Differences of Sex Development conditions and which ones are relevant in this particular issue of sport.

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 13:12

@TheKeatingFive I believe a lot of it is down to how the body responds to or produces different hormones. I am absolutely not pretending to be an expert on this issue, and to be honest I don't feel I know enough to form a valid opinion. I think it's a very contentious issue and I think that is understandable. But, I strongly feel that this issue, which is a medical one, is very different to the issue of transgender women in sport, and I think it is wrong to conflate the two.

What I have objected most to on this thread is the vitriol from some posters towards both Khelif and other posters who have expressed a difference of opinion.

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 13:14

@Helleofabore sorry what is wrong with stating quite simply that people with DSD don't experience puberty in the same way? And what is wrong with citing some simple and easily digestible information from the NHS which explains this..

Before my post above I haven't actually posted an opinion on the issue at hand.

What I will stand firm by is that the transgender issue is different and the article that you posted talks about transgender athletes. They are not the same as athletes with DSD. That is a fact. So conflating the two is wrong.

TheKeatingFive · 05/08/2024 13:15

But, I strongly feel that this issue, which is a medical one, is very different to the issue of transgender women in sport, and I think it is wrong to conflate the two.

Two sides of the same coin which ultimately come down to the same point. Is it valid to have males in female sports. For me, absolutely not. You?

Helleofabore · 05/08/2024 13:16

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 13:14

@Helleofabore sorry what is wrong with stating quite simply that people with DSD don't experience puberty in the same way? And what is wrong with citing some simple and easily digestible information from the NHS which explains this..

Before my post above I haven't actually posted an opinion on the issue at hand.

What I will stand firm by is that the transgender issue is different and the article that you posted talks about transgender athletes. They are not the same as athletes with DSD. That is a fact. So conflating the two is wrong.

Because 'in the same way' is completely misleading to the final outcome.

The outcomes are the same.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 05/08/2024 13:17

But, I strongly feel that this issue, which is a medical one, is very different to the issue of transgender women in sport, and I think it is wrong to conflate the two.

Both are males in women's sports. Regardless of how one 'identifies'. Not sure why that's so difficult to understand.

Again, any examples of all this transphobia that you keep seeing?

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 13:18

I don't think transgender women should compete in female sport. I don't feel I know enough about people with DSD, their biology etc to have a properly informed opinion to be honest.

TheKeatingFive · 05/08/2024 13:20

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 13:18

I don't think transgender women should compete in female sport. I don't feel I know enough about people with DSD, their biology etc to have a properly informed opinion to be honest.

What's the logical conclusion of this though? Any males with any kind of disorders get to compete in the women's? Why just DSDs?

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