Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To say the Olympics hates women

629 replies

ArabellaScott · 03/08/2024 10:30

A child rapist performing for the Netherlands.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olympics/article-13674293/Convicted-child-rapist-Steven-van-Velde-Netherlands-booed-volleyball-olympics.html

Males punching women in the face as sport.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/articles/cnd0drjr4jdo

Offensive caricatures of women everywhere.

https://glaad.org/french-drag-artists-made-history-as-first-in-drag-to-carry-the-olympic-torch/

Convicted child rapist Steven van de Velde reaches volleyball last-16

Convicted child rapist Steven van de Velde received a hostile reception again as he was loudly booed by the crowd during the Netherlands' volleyball defeat against Norway on Friday.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olympics/article-13674293/Convicted-child-rapist-Steven-van-Velde-Netherlands-booed-volleyball-olympics.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
28
nietzscheanvibe · 05/08/2024 10:59

MushMonster · 04/08/2024 21:57

But sex is more than your genes. You have to take into account genes, physiology and hormones.

I will not take lectures on the non existance of DSD and intersex individuals.
And I strongly disagree with the statement that a male was fighting a female in this case. Two women fighting each other, one with a possible DSD which may mean they should not be in the same category. But two women.

One with a possible DSD which may mean they should not be in the same category...

...because they're a MAN.

The DSD that would prohibit them from the women's category is where they are male, but their physiology failed to develop in the womb as it should have (that's why they were wrongly identified as female at birth); they have internal penis and testes which result in male puberty, hence the unfair advantage. As you say "genes, physiology, and hormones" 🤷‍♂️

Tandora · 05/08/2024 11:01

I’ll repeat:

So you agree - people with XY chromosomes potentially eligible for female sports, under a rule
appropriately set by science to ensure fairness 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/08/2024 11:02

No, you're just phoning it in now @Tandora Grin

ArabellaScott · 05/08/2024 11:02

Tandora · 05/08/2024 10:12

As I said. A meaningful graph in this context / for this debate would map the testosterone levels of XX people with DSDs (and other women) compared to XY people with DSDs who were assigned female at birth. If you produce that it would be really interesting to see.

A graph mapping testosterone for “normal”, “healthy” men and women (whatever that means- eg vague / ill- defined) is irrelevant here.

Edited

Okay, I'll try that again with extra steps - my bold:

'The conditions ['conditions refers to DSDs] that affect genetic (biological) females are all below the male range.'

A female with a DSD will have testosterone in a range that will not overlap with male testosterone.

A male with 5ARD will have normal testosterone levels for a male (- the Variation/Difference is in the DHT that converts the T).

Here's a great thread on 5ARD.

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819041282594873759

x.com

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819041282594873759

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/08/2024 11:02

Won't your "kiddos" be getting bored?

Helleofabore · 05/08/2024 11:03

Tandora · 05/08/2024 10:48

very interesting paper, thank you. Very important statement here.

the appropriate eligibility criterion for female athletic events should be a circulating testosterone of <5.0 nmol/L. This would include all women other than those with untreated hyperandrogenic disorders of sexual development and noncompliant male-to-female transgender as well as testosterone-treated female-to-male transgender or androgen dopers.

So this rule , recommended in this paper you favour, if adopted would allow most women with DSDs and trans women to compete in female sport, as long as they were receiving medical services.

So you agree - people with XY chromosomes potentially eligible for female sports, under a rule
appropriately set by science 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

Edited

I put this paper up for you to see the levels that he refers to.

I didn't position this paper as one that I 'favour'. That is you twisting this to suit your own agenda.

Where have I said that at this moment those people who do not process testosterone as XY male people are excluded from female categories of sport? Please over how many thread, point that out.

That would be dishonest.

I will point out that this paper was from 2018. David has been also involved in other research since and, I believe, would say something rather different now.

This is quite a good discussion on transitioned males in sport done by Australia's SBS TV channel. It includes people like Jane Fleming (Olympic athletics champ), Deborah Acason (Commonwealth games female weighlifting champion and pioneer), Holly Lawford-Smith, Prof David Handelsman (Uni of Sydney) specialist in Testosterone, Dr Roslyn Carbon (part of the team developing UK Sports guidance), Mianne Baggar and Joanne Harper.

Overall, it showed just how much the inclusive side fall onto emotional manipulation in the face of overwhelming evidence that counters their claims.

Here also is a review about testosterone, the New Zealand review of whether IOC 10nm/l would work to reduce advantage.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/#B44-ijerph-19-09103

Transwoman Elite Athletes: Their Extra Percentage Relative to Female Physiology
Alison K Heather, Stacy T. Sims, Academic Editor and Christopher T. Minson, Academic Editor

August 2022

Abstract:

There is increasing debate as to whether transwoman athletes should be included in the elite female competition. Most elite sports are divided into male and female divisions because of the greater athletic performance displayed by males. Without the sex division, females would have little chance of winning because males are faster, stronger, and have greater endurance capacity. Male physiology underpins their better athletic performance including increased muscle mass and strength, stronger bones, different skeletal structure, better adapted cardiorespiratory systems, and early developmental effects on brain networks that wires males to be inherently more competitive and aggressive. Testosterone secreted before birth, postnatally, and then after puberty is the major factor that drives these physiological sex differences, and as adults, testosterone levels are ten to fifteen times higher in males than females. The non-overlapping ranges of testosterone between the sexes has led sports regulators, such as the International Olympic Committee, to use 10 nmol/L testosterone as a sole physiological parameter to divide the male and female sporting divisions. Using testosterone levels as a basis for separating female and male elite athletes is arguably flawed. Male physiology cannot be reformatted by estrogen therapy in transwoman athletes because testosterone has driven permanent effects through early life exposure. This descriptive critical review discusses the inherent male physiological advantages that lead to superior athletic performance and then addresses how estrogen therapy fails to create a female-like physiology in the male. Ultimately, the former male physiology of transwoman athletes provides them with a physiological advantage over the cis-female athlete.

Conclusion:

Testosterone drives much of the enhanced athletic performance of males through in utero, early life, and adult exposure. Many anatomical sex differences driven by testosterone are not reversible. Hemoglobin levels and muscle mass are sensitive to adult life testosterone levels, with hemoglobin being the most responsive. Studies in transgender women, and androgen-deprivation treated cancer patients, show muscle mass is retained for many months, even years, and that co-comittant exercise mitigates muscle loss. Given that sports are currently segregated into male and female divisions because of superior male athletic performance, and that estrogen therapy will not reverse most athletic performance parameters, it follows that transgender women will enter the female division with an inherent advantage because of their prior male physiology.

The current IOC regulations allow transwomen athletes to compete if testosterone levels have been lowered to <10 nmol/L for 12 months prior to competition. While this begins to address the advantageous effects of circulating testosterone on athletic performance, it does not take into account the advantage afforded by testosterone exposure prior to transitioning. The existing data suggests that lowering testosterone to less than 10 nmol/L for 12 months decreases muscle mass but not to biological female levels and despite the decrease in mass, muscle strength can be maintained, especially if concurrently exercising. Estrogen therapy does not affect most of the anatomical structures in the biological male that provide a physiological benefit. Hemoglobin levels are lowered by estrogen therapy, and consequently, maximum aerobic effort may be lower, but this parameter will only be manifested if testosterone levels are suppressed to levels within the biological female range and maintained for extended periods of time. Reported studies show it is difficult to continuously suppress testosterone in transgender women. Given that the percentage difference between medal placings at the elite level is normally less than 1%, there must be confidence that an elite transwoman athlete retains no residual advantage from former testosterone exposure, where the inherent advantage depending on sport could be 10–30%. Current scientific evidence can not provide such assurances and thus, under abiding rulings, the inclusion of transwomen in the elite female division needs to be reconsidered for fairness to female-born athletes.

This dailymail link discusses it.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12111455/The-trans-advantage-womens-sports-explained.html

Gender Games: Trans women and sport | Full Episode | SBS Insight

Do transgender women belong in women’s sports? On Gender Games, we hear from transwomen and female athletes about inclusion, fairness and safety. Can sports ...

https://youtu.be/STX1GCxYEIc

ArabellaScott · 05/08/2024 11:04

Helleofabore · 05/08/2024 10:40

To pull this out for readers:

The highest testosterone level for women with PCOS has been found to be less than 5.5 nmol/l.

Semenya was recorded as having testosterone levels around 21 nmol/l with 5ARD. I believe it was 21-23 nmol/l

Edited

Oh, thanks Helle, I've been away doing actual work and hadn't refreshed the thread. That's very clear.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/08/2024 11:05

I'm sure most people are aware of which posters are arguing in good faith.

nietzscheanvibe · 05/08/2024 11:12

Tandora · 05/08/2024 10:13

A cis woman is a person registered female at birth who identifies as female.

It is nuanced and complicated issue . But the language is really not that difficult to understand if one tries.

Edited

Please don't cis-gender people, some might find it offensive!

"Cis" is an unnecessary term invented by trans ideologists to validate trans status and to gain equivalence - but it's a false equivalence... there are women and trans-identified men, and there are men and trans-identified women, no other categories are necessary!

Helleofabore · 05/08/2024 11:16

Tandora · 05/08/2024 10:48

very interesting paper, thank you. Very important statement here.

the appropriate eligibility criterion for female athletic events should be a circulating testosterone of <5.0 nmol/L. This would include all women other than those with untreated hyperandrogenic disorders of sexual development and noncompliant male-to-female transgender as well as testosterone-treated female-to-male transgender or androgen dopers.

So this rule , recommended in this paper you favour, if adopted would allow most women with DSDs and trans women to compete in female sport, as long as they were receiving medical services.

So you agree - people with XY chromosomes potentially eligible for female sports, under a rule
appropriately set by science 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

Edited

You have admitted you know fuck all about sports, yet you continue with these rather ill informed posts without any background information.

Here is Dr Handelsmann with Dr Emma Hilton (I believe you refuse to read her work) jointly from May 2022.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/what-science-tells-us-about-transgender-female-athletes/news-story/cb8b7a30f68745a3fa65442b7ff15694?amp=&nk=1d6f90bafa534b361f0c51d8d468023b-1722852589

https://archive.ph/C84Be

Leading scientists explain trans-advantage in elite sport

Transgender participation in elite sports has critical dimensions of fairness (including safety) and inclusion which inevitably conflict. Science informs the first and should guide communal attitudes and values for the second.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/what-science-tells-us-about-transgender-female-athletes/news-story/cb8b7a30f68745a3fa65442b7ff15694?amp=&nk=1d6f90bafa534b361f0c51d8d468023b-1722852589

Helleofabore · 05/08/2024 11:30

Tandora · 05/08/2024 11:01

I’ll repeat:

So you agree - people with XY chromosomes potentially eligible for female sports, under a rule
appropriately set by science to ensure fairness 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

No.

If you said:

"people with XY chromosomes that have been extensively tested to prove their bodies do not process any of the testosterone they produce, are potentially eligible for the protected female category of sports, under a rule appropriately set by science to ensure fairness until that inclusiveness can be shown to have a negative impact on fairness to female** athletes".

** female being defined as a human with a body formed around the production of large gametes, regardless of the status of that production. And by this, ovaries and only ovaries need to be present, even if this is in tissue form.

Then I might agree with you.

Because sex matters to sports.

Please don't misrepresent my views. It is dishonest. And for someone who prides themselves on being a doctorate holder with peer reviewed papers, I am surprised by your thinking that this was ok.

BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator · 05/08/2024 11:40

@Tandora as you're appropriately qualified - much more so than anyone on the opposition, natch - surely you know what are appropriate spectra of Testosterone levels for a healthy female human and healthy male human without referring to the linked article? Which then makes me wonder why you are continue to argue against it being a clear cut argument. It's honestly baffling 🤷🏼‍♀️

BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator · 05/08/2024 11:41

BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator · 05/08/2024 11:40

@Tandora as you're appropriately qualified - much more so than anyone on the opposition, natch - surely you know what are appropriate spectra of Testosterone levels for a healthy female human and healthy male human without referring to the linked article? Which then makes me wonder why you are continue to argue against it being a clear cut argument. It's honestly baffling 🤷🏼‍♀️

Unless of course, you are less well versed in the subject of DSDs than you make out

<awaits malicious bolding>

ImASexFascistApparently · 05/08/2024 11:44

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Use the sodding report button instead of clogging up the thread!

If you want to build a database of "personal attacks" for your own edification, fine! Do it in private please!

Garlicfest · 05/08/2024 11:44

Cookiecoop · 03/08/2024 12:18

Thank god for some actual sense here 👏

Yeah, not exactly. "The boxer that everyone is upset about isn't a man."

Humans who aren't men are women. Khelif and Lin aren't women.

"They are intersex." Intersex is an outdated term for DSD/VSD. It doesn't signify a third sex. There is no third sex.

Helleofabore · 05/08/2024 11:52

BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator · 05/08/2024 11:40

@Tandora as you're appropriately qualified - much more so than anyone on the opposition, natch - surely you know what are appropriate spectra of Testosterone levels for a healthy female human and healthy male human without referring to the linked article? Which then makes me wonder why you are continue to argue against it being a clear cut argument. It's honestly baffling 🤷🏼‍♀️

I have had this very same thought.

I makes me think that there is a disconnect here

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 12:10

@BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator to be fair, @Tandora has been ridiculed for simply having a different opinion to other people on this thread, which once again has descended into a debate about trans athletes, for no reason seemingly other than for people to express their disgust for the idea that some people may be transgender. The issue at hand here is not about trasgender athletes, it just highlights the transphobia which is prevalent on mumsnet. Sad really.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/08/2024 12:11

No, that isn't all that poster has been challenged for, @Rustnot - they are twisting people's words to pretend they said something they didn't.

BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator · 05/08/2024 12:14

Tandora has repeatedly stated they are qualified in a relevant area to have superior knowledge over others in the field of DSD. I'm just querying that given I've seen no evidence of it 🤷🏼‍♀️

DonnaBanana · 05/08/2024 12:16

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 05/08/2024 12:18

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 12:10

@BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator to be fair, @Tandora has been ridiculed for simply having a different opinion to other people on this thread, which once again has descended into a debate about trans athletes, for no reason seemingly other than for people to express their disgust for the idea that some people may be transgender. The issue at hand here is not about trasgender athletes, it just highlights the transphobia which is prevalent on mumsnet. Sad really.

You must be reading a different thread than me then. Tandora pops up on various threads to present belief/opinion as fact. Explain what transphobia you have seen? Examples seeing as it's so prevalent in your eyes. Who has mentioned trans? Did you report to MN?

Not wanting biological males with all the advantages they possess in women's sports isn't transphobic. It's not even about being trans as these boxers aren't trans. Don't make things up to suit your own narrative (like Tandora does).

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/08/2024 12:21

I take it a lot of you would be in support of putting medically defective people into their own Olympics or something to keep them out of your seemingly pure as pure Olympics. It’s just bigotry.

You are aware that there is a large event called the Paralympics for disabled people? Who are you calling "medically defective"? Doesn't sound particularly progressive terminology for any human being.

Rustnot · 05/08/2024 12:22

@Helleofabore literally posted a whole article about transgender athletes in sport. It has no relevance.

@Allthegoodnamesarechosen please don't start attacking me too. Completely unnecessary to post in your tone.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 05/08/2024 12:22

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Ever head of the Paralympics?

BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator · 05/08/2024 12:23

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Well the paralympics already exists, but I'm not sure "medically defective" is the best way to word what are also awesome athletes!