To say the Olympics hates women

[ArabellaScott]

A child rapist performing for the Netherlands.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olympics/article-13674293/Convicted-child-rapist-Steven-van-Velde-Netherlands-booed-volleyball-olympics.html

Males punching women in the face as sport.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/articles/cnd0drjr4jdo

Offensive caricatures of women everywhere.

https://glaad.org/french-drag-artists-made-history-as-first-in-drag-to-carry-the-olympic-torch/

The camera angles as well! The swimming for example the camera zoomed right up the bum of the female swimmers when they got out of the pool not the same as the male coverage. This is obviously a choice informed by objectification and sexism but overall both male and female athletes seem to have been treated poorly. They are elite not eye candy.

Oh yeh because I insulted /
took issue with someone’s comments - that’s the same 🙄.
Actually that’s not in the guidelines- for good reason.

Why don’t you take some notes eh?

Take issue with/ call out the ideas, the words, the arguments, the rules. Dont attack / denigrate the person.

For goodness sake and for the sake of the thread please do not do this again! It fills the thread up with useless repeats, I'm still catching up but if I see you doing this on other peoples threads I will report it every time!

You can do what you like on your own threads but you absolutely do not get to hasten this or other valid discussions with your inane bolding exercise.

I think you know exactly what you are doing and it's not ok at all here, allow a free discussion please. You can post whatever else you like within the rules but don't be childish fgs!

Sorry, this doesn’t make sense. What are you trying to criticise me for here?

Every post you make reveals your ignorance @Tandora 🙈🙉

'The conditions that affect genetic (biological) females are all below the male range. '

They were allowed to enter the competition because the IOC has run the boxing themselves without any of the International Boxing Federations/Associations/Organisations.

If the IOC had kept the chromosome testing back in 2000 we wouldn't be in this mess.
Instead just about every sport has had questionable females enter competitions and then had to navigate their own way out the situation, or else female sport would just disappear.

I'm of the opinion that all "female" medal and record holders, over the last 24 years, if they are still alive, should come forward for chromosome testing or be stripped for their medal and records. I know that will never happen but ridiculous that female records are held by questionable females.

No messing around with hormone levels it should be black and white. XX or XY any extremely rare people with chromosome abnormalities are welcome to enter XY competitions.

Surely a boxing organisation of such high standards would make sure everyone was eligible before a punch was even thrown.

You'd think, but then the IOC bases it on someone's passport, so...

Also it's hilarious that this poster is arguing for more stringent sex testing here. And telling.

All facts are pointing to this person being a cis woman with a DSD.

How can someone be ‘cis’ if they were incorrectly categorised at birth?

This now has moved the term ‘cis woman’ to now not mean ‘female’ and has become simply as meaningless as the term ‘woman’.

So now we have :

Woman - anyone who describes themselves as a woman

leading to the next label

Transwoman - anyone who describes themselves as a transwoman

Cis woman - female people who describe themselves of women AND male people who were incorrectly categorised at birth as female.

We are told that we must accept the term cis woman. It is used in some academic papers after all.

So this move now has just made all of those supposedly peer reviewed papers and studies indecipherable. And if they are about female people’s medical issues, they are potentially false or at the best misleading.

Plus we now have males who have a transgender identity also calling themselves female.

Language is imperative to discuss the issues around the protection of the rights of female people, including sports. And yet we are to be demonised and vilified for using clear language calling people who are the genotype of XY.

This type of rhetoric leaves female people with no language that uniquely refers to themselves.

So much for all those arguing that there is no harm in being kind and refering to people how they wish to be referred to. Removing the language for female people to discuss their unique needs - that is misogyny.

I turned on BBC1 this morning, in the vain hope of getting the national news instead of wall to wall Olympic coverage. Four women were playing some kind of handball/beach volleyball game and their costumes were incredibly, unnecessarily skimpy. Something for salacious men to wank salivate over, no doubt.

You're making a fool of yourself Tandora.

As I said. A meaningful graph in this context / for this debate would map the testosterone levels of XX people with DSDs (and other women) compared to XY people with DSDs who were assigned female at birth. If you produce that it would be really interesting to see.

A graph mapping testosterone for “normal”, “healthy” men and women (whatever that means- eg vague / ill- defined) is irrelevant here.

A cis woman is a person registered female at birth who identifies as female.

It is nuanced and complicated issue . But the language is really not that difficult to understand if one tries.

Also - this declaration that this boxer was “incorrectly characterised” at birth.

Bizarre assumption when we know nothing of her condition (other than she is potentially XY).

The argument people use to explain this supposed “mistake”, and justify this assumption- her country of origin (and their presumed to be incompetent health services) and the way she looks (not fem enough apparently).

It’s no damn accident that the athletes targeted in this way are almost always people of colour, you can very clearly see the racialised logics and perspectives people use to justify their judgements.

Thank you for confirming the term 'cis' is meaningless.

It is not 'nuanced and complicated'. It is actually very simple.

Tell us all, what are the words that uniquely mean 'female people' who are adults? A word that can never include someone who was male either by genotype or identity.

This chart has come from this paper. The 'Semenya' line was the level that the IOC had said that Semenya had to drop their levels to to participate as a female athlete.

https://academic.oup.com/edrv/article/39/5/803/5052770?login=false

Elite athletic competitions have separate male and female events due to men’s physical advantages in strength, speed, and endurance so that a protected female category with objective entry criteria is required. Prior to puberty, there is no sex difference in circulating testosterone concentrations or athletic performance, but from puberty onward a clear sex difference in athletic performance emerges as circulating testosterone concentrations rise in men because testes produce 30 times more testosterone than before puberty with circulating testosterone exceeding 15-fold that of women at any age. There is a wide sex difference in circulating testosterone concentrations and a reproducible dose-response relationship between circulating testosterone and muscle mass and strength as well as circulating hemoglobin in both men and women. These dichotomies largely account for the sex differences in muscle mass and strength and circulating hemoglobin levels that result in at least an 8% to 12% ergogenic advantage in men. Suppression of elevated circulating testosterone of hyperandrogenic athletes results in negative effects on performance, which are reversed when suppression ceases. Based on the nonoverlapping, bimodal distribution of circulating testosterone concentration (measured by liquid chromatography–mass spectrometry)—and making an allowance for women with mild hyperandrogenism, notably women with polycystic ovary syndrome (who are overrepresented in elite athletics)—the appropriate eligibility criterion for female athletic events should be a circulating testosterone of <5.0 nmol/L. This would include all women other than those with untreated hyperandrogenic disorders of sexual development and noncompliant male-to-female transgender as well as testosterone-treated female-to-male transgender or androgen dopers.

And this

This is from a PCOS advocate on twitter.

PCOS raises female testosterone to up to 5.5 nmol/L (and above 4 can cause serious issues).
5-ARD raised Caster's testosterone to 21 nmol/L.

twitter.com/NathanielHart72/status/1550916276490477568?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

To pull this out for readers:

The highest testosterone level for women with PCOS has been found to be less than 5.5 nmol/l.

Semenya was recorded as having testosterone levels around 21 nmol/l with 5ARD. I believe it was 21-23 nmol/l

very interesting paper, thank you. Very important statement here.

the appropriate eligibility criterion for female athletic events should be a circulating testosterone of <5.0 nmol/L. This would include all women other than those with untreated hyperandrogenic disorders of sexual development and noncompliant male-to-female transgender as well as testosterone-treated female-to-male transgender or androgen dopers.

So this rule , recommended in this paper you favour, if adopted would allow most women with DSDs and trans women to compete in female sport, as long as they were receiving medical services.

So you agree - people with XY chromosomes potentially eligible for female sports, under a rule
appropriately set by science 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

Right I’m off to care for my kiddos. Can’t be doing another day of this x

So this rule , recommended in this paper you favour, if adopted would allow most women with DSDs and trans women to compete in female sport, as long as they were receiving medical services.

Don't be silly, @Tandora, it's clear that she quoted it to show that Semenya's levels were way above what that paper considered female levels. Fairness and safety for women is not all about testosterone levels, either, it's about going through a male puberty. Hence World Rugby etc rules which aren't based on testosterone.

I believe that reducing testosterone to x level is the rule that some sports organisations have adopted. It doesn't make it the right way to deal with males in female sports and @Helleofabore didn't claim it was.

Right I’m off to care for my kiddos. Can’t be doing another day of this

Sure. Bye!