Page 19 | Genuine question re pensioner fuel payment cut

Katypp · 2024-08-02T08:49:24+00:00

Just this: How would the Labour supporters react if three weeks into a new Conservative Government, the chancellor cut the winter fuel payment to any pensioner with an income of more than £11k? Would you think it was a reasonable thing to do or would it be considered cruel because it was the Tories implementing it, not Labour? I would imagine Angela Raynor, Yvette Cooper and Wes Streeting would have been very vocal and worried about it. Would the public finances argument wash if it was a Tory Government? It didn't when Cameron came into power. What's different?

Iwasafool · 04/08/2024 15:01

taxguru · 04/08/2024 14:31

I see it a lot too. Ironically their "kids" (or more likely grand kids) need the money now and would be grateful now, rather than having to wait for them to die! I think it comes from the mentality of the people from yesteryear, as per the "Mill on the Floss" book where there was a woman who had a front room with all her nice stuff in that no one was allowed to go into (even she never used it) and she had loads of "posh" tablewear in a cupboard that was never used, and for poorly paraphrase her, she said something like, "people will know what nice stuff I had when I'm dead". Very strange way of thinking.

I've a neighbour who is very well off, rattling around in a six bedroom house on his own, a new BMW every couple of years, etc. Really struggling at the moment as he needs a hip replacement and has been limping around for 2 or 3 years now, still waiting for the op. I suggested he went private in passing conversation when he was whingeing about waiting lists and he went ballistic - got both barrels of "I've paid tax all my life" etc etc. He could easily afford a private op but would rather wait for 2/3/4 years for it to be done on the NHS, in pain all that time, the pain stopping him doing what he wants such as holidays, gardening, etc. I just don't get it at all. Saw him the other day and he was almost foaming at the mouth about the loss of the WFA that he doesn't actually need, but again "I've paid tax all my life" entitlement.

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The private operations is a bit more complicated. I wouldn't pay for a private operation although I could afford a new hip if I needed one, it isn't because I'm hoarding money it is because I don't agree with private health care or education. I believe if everyone had to rely on the same service the people in power would make sure it was a great deal better than it is now.

Iwasafool · 04/08/2024 15:04

Itsrainingten · 04/08/2024 14:59

Seriously. This is a ridiculous comparison. There is an actual WORLD of difference between spending every penny on Carribbean holidays (meaning you'd have nothing left to pay for care if you need it) and refusing to use your heating so as not to spend money and expecting the tax payer to foot the bill. Both are very selfish attitudes though.

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I was referring to giving your kids/grand/kids money when they need it now instead of waiting for an inheritance. There might not be an inheritance if care is needed.

2dogsandabudgie · 04/08/2024 15:24

taxguru · 04/08/2024 14:22

It'd only be 55p per pensioner per year, so hardly worth even thinking about.

It's all a numbers game. These figures sound big until you divided by the number of pensioners (12.6 million!)

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Of course that £7 million paid by the taxpayers is worth thinking about. Bloody hell! So you think it's ok for MPs to have cheap subsidised meals while pensioners freeze to death do you?

setmestraightplease · 05/08/2024 00:43

older people in their 80s and 90s, that even with savings, find difficult to go into their savings etc due to worries and anxieties or whatever reason as people at that age often can't change , some of them that currently use the fuel allowance to keep warm, will not use any other money instead even if they have it , some people at that age have fix ideas and it is very difficult to change them , they are not going to suddenly change, they will instead suffer the cold ang get ill, specially if they don't have enough family or support, or if they don't listen to the family."

@Itsrainingten Sorry but if they have the money and CHOOSE NOT TO USE IT for whatever reason, that's on them. I really don't care about their "fixed ideas" if they get ill because they're too stubborn to use their money and would.rather hoard it WTH should the taxpayer be covering the cost???

Honestly?

Let's see how you get on when you're in your 80s and you need money to cushion you against unexpected bills like a boiler replacement or a roof repair.

Not to mention the fact that you will need help with things that you could easily do yourself before,

Things like: a gardener, because you can't look after your small garden yourself beccause your mobility is bad, carers because you can't safely cook for yourself, a podiatrist to make home visits because you can't easily get out any more, taxi fares for hospital appointments that you need to attend, a cleaner because you need help, someone to do the shopping for you ............
and no, not all of these things are automatically covered by benefits

Do you have no idea about the life values of the older generation who lived through the aftermath of WW1 and then through WW2 - it was ingrained into each and every person to save, to recycle, to re-use, to economise, to protect their family( even at the cost of sending their children away so they were safe in WW2), to put community before self.

This generation are the last people who want to ask for government help - they see it as a shameful thing.

It seems that many of today's generation have no concept of the 'old-fashioned' values of pride, independence, community , personal sacrifice, not wanting to 'sponge off the state' .......
and just reduce everything to a monetary value.

And it seems that pensioners have no monetary value.

GreenTeaLikesMe · 05/08/2024 02:18

setmestraightplease · 05/08/2024 00:43

older people in their 80s and 90s, that even with savings, find difficult to go into their savings etc due to worries and anxieties or whatever reason as people at that age often can't change , some of them that currently use the fuel allowance to keep warm, will not use any other money instead even if they have it , some people at that age have fix ideas and it is very difficult to change them , they are not going to suddenly change, they will instead suffer the cold ang get ill, specially if they don't have enough family or support, or if they don't listen to the family."

@Itsrainingten Sorry but if they have the money and CHOOSE NOT TO USE IT for whatever reason, that's on them. I really don't care about their "fixed ideas" if they get ill because they're too stubborn to use their money and would.rather hoard it WTH should the taxpayer be covering the cost???

Honestly?

Let's see how you get on when you're in your 80s and you need money to cushion you against unexpected bills like a boiler replacement or a roof repair.

Not to mention the fact that you will need help with things that you could easily do yourself before,

Things like: a gardener, because you can't look after your small garden yourself beccause your mobility is bad, carers because you can't safely cook for yourself, a podiatrist to make home visits because you can't easily get out any more, taxi fares for hospital appointments that you need to attend, a cleaner because you need help, someone to do the shopping for you ............
and no, not all of these things are automatically covered by benefits

Do you have no idea about the life values of the older generation who lived through the aftermath of WW1 and then through WW2 - it was ingrained into each and every person to save, to recycle, to re-use, to economise, to protect their family( even at the cost of sending their children away so they were safe in WW2), to put community before self.

This generation are the last people who want to ask for government help - they see it as a shameful thing.

It seems that many of today's generation have no concept of the 'old-fashioned' values of pride, independence, community , personal sacrifice, not wanting to 'sponge off the state' .......
and just reduce everything to a monetary value.

And it seems that pensioners have no monetary value.

To be old enough to remember the aftermath of WWI, a person would be about 100 now. Realistically, how many people are we talking about here?

setmestraightplease · 05/08/2024 03:42

@GreenTeaLikesMe To be old enough to remember the aftermath of WWI, a person would be about 100 now. Realistically, how many people are we talking about here?

You're stretching here!

I work with elderly people and they remember how their parents were affected by WW1 and the impact it therefore had on their upbringing and the life values they were brought up with.

And then just 21years after the end of WW1 there was another world war - and they were living the life their parents had lived

I guess that your parents aren't affected by the withdrawal of the WFA ?

GreenTeaLikesMe · 05/08/2024 04:15

What do you mean, "affected"? They will lose the WFA for sure. It won't do them any harm. Their house is worth the thick end of a million quid. My parents are delightful people but they do not need welfare payments. And the government really really cannot afford to keep pissing welfare all over middle class people, sorry. The integenerational trauma arguments being made here are ridiculous.

Itsrainingten · 05/08/2024 06:50

@GreenTeaLikesMe so because they loved through WWII it's understandable they don't want to use their own money to heat their homes and the rest of society should just pay for that for them? Ok then.

GreenTeaLikesMe · 05/08/2024 07:03

Exactly. I mean, how far do we want to stretch this? I was born in 1975 and can remember my nan talking about the Depression, I reckon I'm suffering intergenerational trauma too. Can I get a fuel payment as well? I'm so upset by those stories that you can't possibly expect me to dip into my own money to pay my bills.

BIossomtoes · 05/08/2024 07:28

Do you have no idea about the life values of the older generation who lived through the aftermath of WW1 and then through WW2 - it was ingrained into each and every person to save, to recycle, to re-use, to economise, to protect their family( even at the cost of sending their children away so they were safe in WW2), to put community before self.

That was my parents’ generation - long gone. Mine would have been 106 and 108 now.

rwalker · 05/08/2024 07:36

GreenTeaLikesMe · 05/08/2024 02:18

To be old enough to remember the aftermath of WWI, a person would be about 100 now. Realistically, how many people are we talking about here?

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My mum’s in her early 80’s she was brought up just after the war
her parents experienced the war and the aftermath was part of her childhood
so anyone in there 80’s will be affected by the aftermath of the war
there plenty of people in there 80’s so it’s not just a few

Gogogo12345 · 05/08/2024 07:59

rwalker · 05/08/2024 07:36

My mum’s in her early 80’s she was brought up just after the war
her parents experienced the war and the aftermath was part of her childhood
so anyone in there 80’s will be affected by the aftermath of the war
there plenty of people in there 80’s so it’s not just a few

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Hmm my dad was born in 1939 He had very few memories of the war . Although not being too pleased that this strange man moved in with his Mum when he started school ( was his dad lol)

His Mum ( my grandmother) was born in 1898 so lived through both wars. She certainly didn't stash stuff and be unltra frugal. She played the property market taking quite a few risks

GreenTeaLikesMe · 05/08/2024 08:00

Again, this is just getting stupid. Are we supposed to give out welfare payments to middle class people because their parents had a hard time in life? Where does it all end?

I can tell you right now, that when a Tory government finally gets back in (maybe 10 years from now?) they will have no interest in bringing back the fuel payments. Because everyone will have learned to manage fine without it, the sky will not have fallen in, and because the numbers of elderly people will have climbed to still higher heights and it will have become clear that the policy is no longer affordable. This payment will have to go sooner or later and would have been scrapped eventually regardness of which party was in power.

IamtheDevilsAvocado · 05/08/2024 08:01

QueenOfTheNihilist · 02/08/2024 10:29

I would have been outraged… and I am outraged that Labour have done this too - I am a Labour voting pensioner.

On MN there is a widespread belief that pensioners are mostly wealthy, not feeling the COLC at all, and can manage sky high winter bills and henceforth live on a dwindling income in real terms so the triple lock can be abandoned.

Good for you all with your wealthy cruise-going ILs…

Meanwhile, everyone I know is living frugally and quite fearful of the future.

I am not saying the WFP should be paid across the board, but the threshold hold is WAY too low. People in good occupational pensions, index linked public sector, big savings pots etc, all pay TAX. It ought to be easy peasy to set a threshold of income, identified through HMRC , above which the payment is not made.

Lots of pensioners are not enjoying comfortable incomes at all.

We weren’t feckless and greedy… lost if reasons;
If we bought flats or a house the most common thing to do was buy an endowment, at which point we were told that it would pay off the mortgage AND give us a sum for retirement. Then it all went tits up and many people were left with a shortfall on mortgage, never mind money for cruises.

Other people spent more than half their working life before 60 believing they would get a pension at 60. Then thought ‘ok I’ll work till 66’ but got ill or worn out , or dud last minute saving but couldn’t save enough

Many of us worked our whole employed lives with no employer contribution at all, until the last legal minute, at the lowest legal level.

Many of us just never earned much. No free childcare hours etc…

Had savings but lost to divorce

Many reasons.

Just because YOU know wealthy pensioners does not mean it’s the whole picture.

The threshold should not have been set so low.

Agreed!

The threshold should be MUCH higher... So more people are entitled to WFA/CT benefits

But equally, All the free services like free prescriptions /bus passes should be looked at too...

I know retired NHS staff on pensions of best part of 50k.. Surely it's not just they should receive it.??

2dogsandabudgie · 05/08/2024 08:06

GreenTeaLikesMe · 05/08/2024 04:15

What do you mean, "affected"? They will lose the WFA for sure. It won't do them any harm. Their house is worth the thick end of a million quid. My parents are delightful people but they do not need welfare payments. And the government really really cannot afford to keep pissing welfare all over middle class people, sorry. The integenerational trauma arguments being made here are ridiculous.

That's just your parents. Why do people on here think all pensioners are rolling in it and jetting off on cruises and living the champagne lifestyle.

Good for your parents if they can manage without it. Many pensioners can't. They are the ones who will struggle. No one is disputing the fact that some pensioners don't need it, it's the ones who are just above the cut off for pension credit who will suffer this winter. How are you ok with that?

rwalker · 05/08/2024 08:11

GreenTeaLikesMe · 05/08/2024 08:00

Again, this is just getting stupid. Are we supposed to give out welfare payments to middle class people because their parents had a hard time in life? Where does it all end?

I can tell you right now, that when a Tory government finally gets back in (maybe 10 years from now?) they will have no interest in bringing back the fuel payments. Because everyone will have learned to manage fine without it, the sky will not have fallen in, and because the numbers of elderly people will have climbed to still higher heights and it will have become clear that the policy is no longer affordable. This payment will have to go sooner or later and would have been scrapped eventually regardness of which party was in power.

i Think people need to realise there an enormous chunk of pensioners living off next to nothing just above the threshold for pension credits. There not all middle class in massive houses sat on savings

this affects the ones at the bottom

GreenTeaLikesMe · 05/08/2024 08:31

I think there's a case for arguing that the cutoff point might need to be adjusted. What I was taking issue with the idea that we should be basing payouts on the concept of "older people, even if they themselves are comfortably off, are traumatized by the fact that they remember hearing about poverty during their childhoods, so we can't possibly expect them to pay for things out of their regular cashflows because the idea will probably cause them to spiral." That is a very different idea, and it's nonsense.

sashh · 05/08/2024 08:43

I'm not really adding anything to this discussion but I want to make people aware.

If you are on a low income you can apply for a 'warm homes discount'. This is £150 credited to your electricity meter. \this is for England and Wales, there are different schemes in Scotland and NI.

There are two groups, one is if you are on certain benefits you are in the 'core group', if you are on eg only a state pension then you are not automatically entitled. Each power company has their own criteria.

It can be worth changing to a supplier that you are in their group.

If you are not eligible then suppliers may still help with writing off part of your debt. Apparently Shell paid another £150 last year so if eligible you got £300

lottie.org/fees-funding/warm-home-discount-scheme/#check-if-youre-eligible-for-the-warm-home-discount

Zanatdy · 05/08/2024 08:46

My mum received it and has a lot of savings and did not need it. Therefore I think it’s a good decision

rwalker · 05/08/2024 08:54

Zanatdy · 05/08/2024 08:46

My mum received it and has a lot of savings and did not need it. Therefore I think it’s a good decision

Roughly translated
“ I’m alright jack”

if everyone had as much savings as your mum I’d agree with you but they don’t

Bilbonne · 05/08/2024 08:56

Zanatdy · 05/08/2024 08:46

My mum received it and has a lot of savings and did not need it. Therefore I think it’s a good decision

I didn't need it as I have a small private pension as well but it doesn't mean that others don't, some have no savings and only the state pension which puts them just over the pension credits limit

InterestQ · 05/08/2024 09:03

Hopefully, once the dust has settled with other things and the first winter has been and gone and those who need it make themselves heard, Labour can find a way to raise the threshold and reinstate it for people living off very little, but don’t get pension credits because they contributed fully to NI their whole working lives.

the council tax band idea isn’t perfect but it could work. Otherwise they can think of something else.

YabaJaba · 05/08/2024 10:15

Zanatdy · 05/08/2024 08:46

My mum received it and has a lot of savings and did not need it. Therefore I think it’s a good decision

If your mum had no savings you'd think differently.

Toiletbrushdisaster · 05/08/2024 10:26

As I said previously I am one of those who will be affected by removal of WFA and am just above cut off for pension credit. It will make a difference to me and many others. And yes the older generation born in the early 1950s were often affected by the second world war ( parents started married life in one room with a sick baby ,father suffering from what we would now call PTSD but still having to work in a factory) but I do not feel that my life is any harder now than it is for a single parent trying to work with a sick child and little help for example ,or those will disabilities.
I am expecting a close friend to visit next week. She is terminally ill and we haven't seen each other fora long time. This will be the last time I expect. So that I can afford to take her out for a meal ,I have not done my usual shop this week and will have to cut down next week too. ( Obviously she will never know this.She would be happy with a sandwich ,but I want to do it) ) But it is not confined to me because I am a pensioner. It's just called managing and it's what many people ( probably many more that we know) have to do especially with children.
So it's right to make cuts where we ,as a country ,have to. I just hope that spending goes to education, the police, probation and health.
Seeing the thugs out in force makes me want to cry. Seeing those awful masked hooligans attacking police ,property and others citizens is horrible. I could just about understand if they had a cause that they could explain ,wrong as it may be. I wonder about their understanding of history, politics and religion. It appears they want to act the hero in front of their peers and the giggling girls I saw who were filming these " brave" " men" . Contrast that with the exhausted looking police and the poor police dogs and horses ( which appear to have more dignity than the idiotic humans!) So if money is to be spent ,and I hope it is, on putting society back together I'm happy to give up the benefit . Let's not assume anything about our fellow humans. Some pensioners are rich ,some not. Some parents are feckless. Most aren't. But there is a much bigger issue facing this country and our focus should be on the young people . The horrible stabbings ,the riots,the racism this week ,what sort of world are they inheriting? Let's not blame groups of people who we do not know ,or who we make assumptions about.

taxguru · 05/08/2024 10:40

GreenTeaLikesMe · 05/08/2024 04:15

What do you mean, "affected"? They will lose the WFA for sure. It won't do them any harm. Their house is worth the thick end of a million quid. My parents are delightful people but they do not need welfare payments. And the government really really cannot afford to keep pissing welfare all over middle class people, sorry. The integenerational trauma arguments being made here are ridiculous.

Similar here. MIL has spent all week whinging about the WFA removal. A few years ago, she spent weeks whinging about losing her free TV licence.

She's got over £100k in the bank and owns her own home worth £250k.

She doesn't "need" a free TV licence nor WFA.

Her state pension easily covers her expenses and she can actually save from it too. Her late husbands occupational pensions go into a different bank account and just earn interest, she never needs to touch the money as state pension alone covers whatever she needs. So she's still building up savings!

Yet she feels "entitled" because she claims she's paid tax all her life! Duh! No! She gave up work when she was pregnant at 21, and has never worked since, just relying on her husband to do everything for her, including working long hours, doing all the home admin (finances, arranging tradesmen etc). I can't imagine what she thinks her "work" life entailed, but it's nothing like the life of someone young or middle aged today who has to work, often full time, on top of doing all the childcare and house things.