Genuine question re pensioner fuel payment cut

[Katypp]

Just this: How would the Labour supporters react if three weeks into a new Conservative Government, the chancellor cut the winter fuel payment to any pensioner with an income of more than £11k?
Would you think it was a reasonable thing to do or would it be considered cruel because it was the Tories implementing it, not Labour?
I would imagine Angela Raynor, Yvette Cooper and Wes Streeting would have been very vocal and worried about it.
Would the public finances argument wash if it was a Tory Government? It didn't when Cameron came into power.
What's different?

And the rich boomers won't even suffer. So much really nasty ageism on here, which has naff all to do with income.

Mmmm well I agree it should be means tested.

Same Re: Bus Passes, I think they should be kept, but no pass for those who still drive. My MIL couldn't wait to get her bus pass even though she has a brand new car and hardly ever gets the bus.

Any 'blanket' pay outs need looking at because the money needs to come from somewhere.

All I heard about Labour from the older people I work with was how they just spend money we haven't got, so now they're finding it.

Lib Dems should have been in power.

Well, clearly you do begrudge them a warm home in winter.

If she hardly ever gets the bus it won't be costing the public purse hardly anything anyway as it only costs for the times it is used.

Posters moaning about free bus passes are probably the same ones that moan that their elderly relatives shouldn't be driving cars

It’s really sensible. I understand there will be those on the cusp who will miss the payment but some of the wealthiest in society are pensioners and absolutely do not need it. Those who are entitled but don’t claim need more support to claim pension credit to ensure they get what they need.

I think benefits such as the winter fuel allowance and bus passes should be means tested but at a higher income level - older people living in poverty is a massive issue. Older adults tend to be thinner, move less and spend more time at home so will have much higher fuel bills than the general population. The gov could easily say anyone over 65 years HMRC see with an income over (say) 25K don't get the allowance. It'll be interesting to see if cases of hypothermia go up this winter

I agree, nobody has said otherwise. But surely if someone can afford four holidays a year the taxpayer shouldn’t be giving them extra money.

That is why people are saying it should be means tested instead of taking the WFA away from all pensioners. People on here seem to think that pensioners fall into 2 categories, either going on cruises or on pension credit. It's the pensioners who are just above the cut off for pension credit who will suffer, the ones who get the full state pension of £220 a week and nothing more.

It's not that hard to understand. Age Concern have already started a petition on this as it will affect over 2 million pensioners who needed that help.

I am confused. I understood that the winter fuel allowance was being scrapped for anyone not on means test benefits.

A pensioner on 11k a year income with 13k would receive £0.61 in Guaranteed Pension Credit. So would qualify for Winter Fuel Allowance and a substantial council tax reduction. If they rent their home they would also get that paid as well within the local housing allowance.

So not sure where this 11k income counting you out of WFA is coming from

And you’ll be really fine when some of those on the cusp die this winter because they can’t afford another winter if sky high winter heating bills?

You know… actually die?

And you’ll shrug and say it’s sensible?

But you could say that of any benefit, and then agree to spend all the public money on benefits and have none left for anything else. A line has to be drawn somewhere. I wholeheartedly support this policy.

Every penny of profit the fossil fuel companies make is a nail in that persons coffin. It’s not the abstract blanket subsidies issued by the previous government. They are killed by capitalism.

I get that, but if means testing costs hundreds of millions of pounds, they may as well just give it to everyone in the first place, but they can’t afford to.

Maybe they should just ask pensioners to opt in to receiving it, and hope that the majority won’t take the mick.

Ironically my DM is on pension credit and PIP, and because she has no housing costs she has more disposable income than she’s ever had in her life, and she will still get the WFA.

They already have the information, they don't need to set up a new system. Pensioners still pay tax so they can use that to see who would qualify.

If your mum is on PIP she will be getting that as she has a disability. So of course that will entitle her to other benefits.

Plenty who get Child Benefit (which adds up to more over the year) don’t need it… so let’s scrap that and then a few babies whose parents live on the cusp will see babies die of cold , but as you say, a line has to be drawn somewhere.

Yes:drawn at a level where people don’t die of cold.

Of course, I was just making the point that she’s far from skint, but still gets the WFA whereas pensioners on a basic state pension will be receiving a lot less than her, and they won’t get it.

This is the the root of the issue, yes.

In Norway their oil and gas profits go straight to the public purse.

Better public services for all, cheap fuel for all.

Citizens in a more cohesive society , not scrapping over who gets £200 a year to pay their bills and shrugging smugly when some pensioners die of cold.

I wondered about the tax angle, I'm sure there must be a simple way of sorting that out. I mean they have all sorts of categories, you can give some of your tax allowance to a partner, blind persons allowance, you can have allowances for WFH, people who split their code over two jobs. It can't be rocket science to work out something for WFA based on taxable income and age, I'm assuming for younger people eligibility would continue as it is.

Please can you explain what you mean when you say you’re not allowed to report fraud? Is this a management decision? Are your management crooked? Is it not so much that you’re not allowed but that you’re scared of losing your job if you call it out? Because if it’s investigated you currently stand the risk of being prosecuted as complicit.

If illegal proceedings are going on at your employer they need to be investigated.

Couldn't agree more. Ignoring fraud that we are all paying for is disgraceful and I'm not sure if it is illegal, sounds like whatever organisation this is it is conspiring to defraud the tax payer.

Again some of the posters are missing the point,

The WFA is ONLY £200 (£300 if over 80) once a year,
It is only payable per household

So guess who are the biggest losers of this petty move by labour -
Women pensioners mostly who live on their own and have all the household costs, one pension and one personal allowance
Older pensioners who are on the much lower basic state pension and paid into a small private pension that takes them above the pension credit level. Many of these pensioners are in their 80s and 90s - they deserve better
Many of them are susceptable to the cold and are mostly at home during the day and night

The evilness of the labour chancelor is made worse by announcing this now when those pensioners who rely on this for the winter months have little time to make up the shortfall

I think those on here saying well pensioners are boomers which = rich - should really think through whether that is actually true.

The company I worked for (takeaway food establishment) was closed down and the staff furloughed. No need for sneery comments about sunbathing while others worked. We had no choice. I would rather have worked. My employer paid back all of the furlough money back to the governmet

We’re not paying for it. The amount of unclaimed benefits exceeds those claimed fraudulently by quite a large margin. Pension credits aren’t being claimed by around 800k people who are entitled to them.