Genuine question re pensioner fuel payment cut

[Katypp]

Just this: How would the Labour supporters react if three weeks into a new Conservative Government, the chancellor cut the winter fuel payment to any pensioner with an income of more than £11k?
Would you think it was a reasonable thing to do or would it be considered cruel because it was the Tories implementing it, not Labour?
I would imagine Angela Raynor, Yvette Cooper and Wes Streeting would have been very vocal and worried about it.
Would the public finances argument wash if it was a Tory Government? It didn't when Cameron came into power.
What's different?

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. That she's a liar or she likes a drink or she has a busy social life or you don't think she should be going on holiday twice a year?!

What are you talking about? Who is being vilified? Who is being moaned at?

Why should those pensioners who have higher incomes than some working people also receive a WFA?

It's good that pensioners are spending money, surely helps to keep the economy going, eating out, holidays etc. The economy would be stuffed without their spending power.

That you are not poor if you are going out drinking and on 2 holidays a year.

Surely they can spend a portion of their own money on their bills then? Why should the tax payer fund their energy bill if they can afford to eat out lots and go on multiple holidays?

Either they are so old, poor and frail that they need a WFA or they are spending so much that the “economy would be stuffed without their spending” and therefore they don’t need it, it can’t be both at the same time.

Can you explain why you think that?
Attendance allowance form is way easier. But the criteria is tougher. But the people claiming it usually have a mountain of medical evidence and often a care assessment e.g. carried out by hospital that says specifically what they can and can not do.
PIP is a very long form and normally applied for by people who have evidence of their conditions, but do not always have evidence of how this affects them e.g. being able to dress. That is why it is a tougher process.

I would have been in favour for a higher limit but not the principle per se.

I'm ok with it for myself as I have a bit of a private pension as well, so get about £18k but I am not happy that pensioners with just pensions over the pension credit limit are not going to get it and have also missed out on all the extras that those with pension credits get,

No it is not means tested. To qualify for pension credit and get the WFA you have to have an income of less than £218 a week. Someone on a full state pension which is only 220 a week doesn't qualify for pension credit so won't now get the WFA. Many pensioners who need this extra money are going to struggle

Because that's not true for all pensioners which is why the cut off point should be higher so that those who just receive the state pension aren't penalised.

Exibit A
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5131390-aibu-to-think-that-i-shouldnt-have-bothered-working-and-paying-into-national-insurance-for-the-35-years-i-have-done-so?page=16&reply=137206588

I would have been fine with whoever wanted to cut WFA. It needed doing a long time ago imo. I just wish there was as much outrage when the Tories cut disability benefits from genuinely disabled people causing them to freeze and starve to death.

£108 is the higher rate of attendance allowance and you have to need 24 hr care/supervision to get it. If you haven't been claiming PIP before your retirement you can't claim as a pensioner. You still need to be below SRP to claim pension credit so someone on full SRP and lower rate attendance allowance won't be getting anywhere near what you are quoting. I think some of these figures can be very misleading and once again pensioners just above the pension credit rate can be very hard up.

Not true about 24 hour care and supervision. You just need to have day and night difficulties. Virtually every person I assist gets higher rate awarded even when I put that they have no night time care needs. It's a joke. All my colleagues in the office feel the same way, we just can't understand how these people get awarded higher rate and we see these people face to face in their own homes. We had one woman recently awarded it who was running errands for other old people and running exercise classes and got awarded it. Of course unless the person wants that putting on the form we aren't allowed to mention it. Bizarre ! I need a new job asap.
And they absolutely do get the figures I quoted if getting a disability benefit and living alone and no-one is claiming carers allowance for looking after them. If on basic state pension which is a couple of pounds above pension credit threshold they get not only the attendance allowance of £73 or £108 a week but a severe disability premium of £85 pension credit. I've been an advisor for seven years- I do know what figures people get.

For those hoping for a wealth tax - what will
this look like? Is this modelled elsewhere successfully? (I will Google shortly).

So is it something like 3% of the combined value of your home equity and savings (if you have those) paid annually? I speak as someone who has very very few savings but I do own a tiny house with a small mortgage. Should home owners be made to cough up annually for the privilege?

does this also apply to those on state pension only who have their £12k a year but managed to pay a mortgage instead of into a pension over their 40 years of grafting in low paid jobs.

I’m not being entirely facetious - I’m up for a wealth tax if it’s affordable, but not if I get my house repossessed because my area got gentrified so it’s deemed more valuable. I couldn’t downsize. It’s already very small.

I have tried to pay it down so that when I AM poor in old age, I will have a roof over my head. I don’t earn enough to pay much tax. If there’s a wealth tax, I’m keen to know how this would be applied.

I've applied for and got attendance allowance for two elderly relatives, my mother with physical disabilities and an aunt with severe dementia. One got the lower rate and one got the higher, I know others with the lower rate.

The government site says "your disability is severe enough for you to need help caring for yourself or someone to supervise you, for your own or someone else’s safety"

For higher rate "Help or supervision throughout both day and night, or a medical professional has said you might have 12 months or less to live"

As a tax payer it seems a little concerning that someone who has worked in benefits for seven years doesn't know that.

You can't judge benefit rates based on people falsely claiming them, if people are fit and well but getting attendance allowance that is fraud, maybe you should report them?

You also quoted PIP which pensionrs can't start a claim for but they can still get it if they were entitled prior to retirement but I don't think it is some big financial windfall, I don't qualify but my husband does, I can assure you he'd swap his pain with you if you want the money.

We aren't allowed to report fraud unfortunately. People are allowed to say anything for their answers. I appreciate what you're saying but it doesn't stop me being amazed at the number of people being awarded higher rate. This is just my experience. PIP can be up to £700 ish a month and then extra pension credit on top if they live alone, obviously that depends on overall financial situation and obviously not everyone gets enhanced rates but can continue to get both components into Pension age wheras Attendance allowance has no mobility component.

Why would the Tories have investigated their own shit?

@Miley1967 I know people getting PIP that frankly surprises me. But attendance allowance is almost exclusively awarded on the basis of what medical professionals say. For example, GP saying Mrs X has parkinsons and has virtually no fine motor skills and can not safely carry hot food or drink. The actual attendance allowance form asks very direct questions but also asks for medical professionals contact details. Its not about things like being able to plan a journey that is in the PIP form, but can you wash, go to toilet, etc, Most people that get PIP would not get Attendance Allowance.

Where are all these magical houses that pensioners can downsize in to?

They are talking about middle class people in large 4 and 5 bedroom houses. Not ordinary people.

You are not required to sell the house you live in if you are on UC etc... why would it be the same for pensioners?
You can't eat bricks.

It’s weird, isn’t it?
Despite all the jealousy and insults and general prejudice against boomers, we are still having an uphill struggle to obtain the right to die on our own terms.
If assisted dying/Dignitas/voluntary euthanasia becomes legal, then a lot of these issues with us pensioners would be solved.
Not everyone, but I’m certainly amongst those who want a painless, easy death available to me when I want it.
Put some of the energy you are using to vilify the elderly into that campaign.

Well there is the demographic time bomb to think about. Too many of us pesky boomers. Maybe this is a cunning plan to offload a few of us if more people die of hypothermia or other cold related illnesses. Many health issues are worsened by the cold. There would be a knock on effect on the NHS of course in the short term but think of the long term savings of not having to pay the pensions of those who don't survive.

Excuse me?! We are talking about pensioners on a few hundred a month. But because they're old, you apparently have no problem with them dying of hypothermia.
Well, aren't you nice?

As a matter of fact, taxing wfa at marginal rates would be better. And yes, we give ours away before you jump.