Genuine question re pensioner fuel payment cut

[Katypp]

Just this: How would the Labour supporters react if three weeks into a new Conservative Government, the chancellor cut the winter fuel payment to any pensioner with an income of more than £11k?
Would you think it was a reasonable thing to do or would it be considered cruel because it was the Tories implementing it, not Labour?
I would imagine Angela Raynor, Yvette Cooper and Wes Streeting would have been very vocal and worried about it.
Would the public finances argument wash if it was a Tory Government? It didn't when Cameron came into power.
What's different?

I've definitely called Sunak an "odious little cretin", mostly due to his lies and incompetence re the 3 million he excluded from covid support!!

And get 500pound more a year in state pension and you lose thousands more through not getting pension credit and all the stuff it opens doors to

'An AIP is a period when you do not have to tell us about changes to your pensions, savings or investments. Your Pension Credit award letter tells you if you have one.
From 6 April 2016, no new AIPs have been set.
If you had an AIP that was due to end on or after 1 April 2019, it will have ended on or before 28 March 2019 and will not have been renewed.
If you are aged over 75 and have an AIP with no end date, it will remain in place until your household circumstances change, for example if you move into a care home or if you become a member of a couple.'

I think all PC claims should be looked out rather than relying on the recipients being obliged to inform
I was correct that no AIPs will be set since 2016.

Just one of the many "cliffedges" in the tax/benefits system. Funny how OAPs didn't care when it was younger people who suffered from that kind of cliff edge and claw back. Now it affects them, they're waking up to what younger generations are facing!

Plus you will be taxed on everything over £12570.

Nobody is saying that it's ok for pensioners to freeze, but this still doesn't answer the question of where the money should come from.

Wherever cuts are made, there is always going to be somebody who suffers the consequences, and some people who are just above the payment cut off.

Pensioners, as a whole, are the wealthiest generation. They own 78% of the UKs property wealth. 1 in 6 own more than one property. Of course not every pensioner is well off, but you can't take into account every individual circumstance when making decisions on behalf of the entire country, and the cut-off needs to be somewhere.

I would be more in favour of keep the WFA for poorer pensioners if it was funded by the same generation - in the form of wealth taxes on assets. Working people are already paying more than they should be, and are getting less for it.

Absolutely this

There’s case law on the lottery winner in the public domain.

The case went to the highest ranking officer and they were permitted to retain their benefits. They told us and made an enquiry about their benefit, so that’s not fraud. Some elderly people are on an indefinite assessed income periods especially the older ones.

You claim benefit- it’s up to you to report the change. Otherwise -fraud.

Winter fuel payments should be based on energy consumption anyway, not building up savings.

I support means testing it, there are very wealthy pensioners who do not need it. I think the cut off is far too low though. I also think they should rethink the state pension and the triple lock.

AFAIK, I wasn't suggesting that at all.
Can you point to where in my post I said that please?
I'm no expert on how energy is produced, distributed, sold, etc, in fact I admit I'm pretty ignorant.
But I've done a bit of research and found that energy costs in the UK have surpassed their highest levels ever.
And the UK's energy costs have risen faster than any other developed countries since 2019. Our costs are among the highest.
For me to say that WFA wouldn't be needed if energy costs weren't so high was probably simplistic, but it is fact that the costs are extremely high and many people can't afford these costs. That was the point I was trying to make, or do you disagree?
The costs could be ameliorated somewhat if VAT wasn't added on to our bills, but it is

They could try to get a job!

We’re not. I’m finding it quite amusing that quite a few of us who are pensioners are fine with it and younger people are getting bent out of shape on our behalf.

You do not speak for me. I have children in their 30's and I'm acutely aware of the financial challenges they have.
It is insulting for you to suggest all people of my demographic think the same way, just as it equally insulting to assume younger people are profligate and waste money on Netflix, tattoos, gadgets and all the other usual suspects........
Pitting one generation against another is disingenuous, lazy and divisive and plays right into the hands of "click-bait" politics.

And you can just imagine the uproar from wealthier pensioners if they were expected to pay wealth taxes, downsize etc, because they've 'worked hard all their lives'. Never mind the fact that younger people are paying higher taxes, getting less for it, and can barely afford to house their families.

My point is that it's not as simple as saying that it's 'cruel' to take winter fuel allowance from pensioners. Where is the money going to come from?

I fully expect wealth taxes to be introduced. I hope they are. At the very least taxation on unearned income should be aligned with earned income.

Inheritance tax and capital gains tax are obvious places. And hammer landlords a bit more and second home owners.

There are some very callous people here saying they are pleased that elderly people on low incomes are losing money by withdrawal of winter fuel benefit.
A full time single worker on minimum wage takes home quite a bit more than the average single pensioner. A single worker on average salary takes home considerably more again. Pensioners are not usually in a position to increase their income by working. The only people worse off than the average pensioner are single people not working and on UC.
You need to remember that most pensioners, especially single people, are NOT well off, just as most single workers are not well off.

Not usually they can’t.

Do not suggest this. It’s apparantly an abhorrent thought lol 🙄

What cliffedges are you referring to that are as low a level of this one?

If CB - the cliff-edge is over £50k and who are you to say that we did not care - we did not fill pages of censure here at anyone who complained such as has happened in this case.
Also the sums involved are vastly differant.
No cliff-edge has hitherto been invoked for a mere £200 per annum per household. But this £200 can be a life and health saver for the person who lost it.

How do you know they don’t care? I’m very aware and care very much about cliff edges , clawbacks, childcare etc. Why does it always become a generational tussle?

I totally agree with you.
All this pensioner bashing !
I can’t afford to have more than two children & don’t get child benefit . I work and I work and still struggle due to COL - no free kids clubs for me - all top dollar!
To be quite frank I’m sick of subsidising all these women who keep having kids & don’t know who the father is. Not true in many cases - just a way to get more money. It’s the working poor we should be helping! What about them.. hard enough being a working women & qualifying for nothing …
As quite rightly said, pensioners can’t add to their income and many no longer are able to work .
Plenty on work related benefits can work & won’t work and some have never worked. How is this sustainable?
Downsizing - to where we’ve known since the 60’s we are an aging population- but no provision were made to build suitable housing for older people to downsize to .
People need to start bucking up their ideas and realise the gravy train is no longer here … & start taking personal responsibility for their actions & decisions in life!

Actually, this post puts it much better than me 🙂

👏. It’s not sustainable. Those young and capable, should be working. It’s no good blaming pensioners because they’ve had more kids than they can provide for.🤷‍♀️

QueenOfTheNihilist · Today 10:29
I would have been outraged… and I am outraged that Labour have done this too - I am a Labour voting pensioner.

On MN there is a widespread belief that pensioners are mostly wealthy, not feeling the COLC at all, and can manage sky high winter bills and henceforth live on a dwindling income in real terms so the triple lock can be abandoned.

Good for you all with your wealthy cruise-going ILs…

Meanwhile, everyone I know is living frugally and quite fearful of the future.

I am not saying the WFP should be paid across the board, but the threshold hold is WAY too low. People in good occupational pensions, index linked public sector, big savings pots etc, all pay TAX. It ought to be easy peasy to set a threshold of income, identified through HMRC , above which the payment is not made.

Lots of pensioners are not enjoying comfortable incomes at all.

We weren’t feckless and greedy… lost if reasons;
If we bought flats or a house the most common thing to do was buy an endowment, at which point we were told that it would pay off the mortgage AND give us a sum for retirement. Then it all went tits up and many people were left with a shortfall on mortgage, never mind money for cruises.

Other people spent more than half their working life before 60 believing they would get a pension at 60. Then thought ‘ok I’ll work till 66’ but got ill or worn out , or dud last minute saving but couldn’t save enough

Many of us worked our whole employed lives with no employer contribution at all, until the last legal minute, at the lowest legal level.

Many of us just never earned much. No free childcare hours etc…

Had savings but lost to divorce

Many reasons.

Just because YOU know wealthy pensioners does not mean it’s the whole picture.

The threshold should not have been set so low.

This totally ^
my parents are fractionally over the threshold and l know they will feel the lack of the WFP.

The problem is pre retirement age, people have no idea how hard life feels once you start getting ailments/illnesses, feel the cold more...in my DMs case Dementia, joints start to hurt etc.
I don't begrudge Pensioners who earn up to say 20K a year getting the benefit.
Younger people SHOULD take the burden.