Page 15 | shocked my best friend voted Reform

clearmoon · 2024-07-31T22:42:48+00:00

Long standing close friend came round for dinner and we were nattering away, and she just mentioned off hand in the conversation that she had voted Reform. i am really shocked. We don't discuss politics much. But I would have guessed lib dems or labour. I love her dearly. But I do wonder if I should think about her differently now, or just carry on as before YANBU - She is not such a good person as I thought all these years YABU-its all fine

VerySadCase · 01/08/2024 13:48

Elbone · 01/08/2024 13:39

I want to learn.

Give me specific examples of Reform having racist and nazi-like policies.

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I don't believe you. I've been on these boards long enough to be able to tell the difference between a genuine poster and one with a different agenda. And I'm done, I can't be arsed to engage with the disingenuous ones any more. It's a waste of time and effort that could be better directed to other things.

But on the off chance that I I am mistaken and you actually want to learn, Google is your friend here. You will find plenty of evidence of why people consider Reform to be a racist party if you genuinely want to know.

Elbone · 01/08/2024 13:49

VerySadCase · 01/08/2024 13:48

I don't believe you. I've been on these boards long enough to be able to tell the difference between a genuine poster and one with a different agenda. And I'm done, I can't be arsed to engage with the disingenuous ones any more. It's a waste of time and effort that could be better directed to other things.

But on the off chance that I I am mistaken and you actually want to learn, Google is your friend here. You will find plenty of evidence of why people consider Reform to be a racist party if you genuinely want to know.

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You’ve taken a lot of time to respond here but completely neglected/ refused to back up your own claims.

Why is that?

Even if you don’t “believe” me. There will be people reading this who will also genuinely want to know. Why not just post the policies and prove your claim? Why the secrecy?

VerySadCase · 01/08/2024 13:51

Elbone · 01/08/2024 13:49

You’ve taken a lot of time to respond here but completely neglected/ refused to back up your own claims.

Why is that?

Even if you don’t “believe” me. There will be people reading this who will also genuinely want to know. Why not just post the policies and prove your claim? Why the secrecy?

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Because it is important for those of us who don't support racism to stand up and be counted. That doesn't mean that we have to get drawn into pointless discussions that just aren't worth the effort.

orchiddottyback · 01/08/2024 13:52

Elbone · 01/08/2024 13:45

If a party had actual racist policies of course most people couldn’t be friends with someone who votes for them. But if we’re talking about people being concerned about illegal immigration, then we aren’t talking about Nazi policies, are we?
If reform have genuinely racist policies, I’d like to know them so that I can inform others who might be tempted to vote for them in the future.

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Exactly and when you get posters like a previous one claiming "The leader of the party has repeatedly made racist, Islamophobic and xenophobic statements." but yet when you ask for actual evidence. They suddenly vanish or try to deflect from answering. If you make a claim you need to back it up with facts.

I would just like one of these people who are putting out erroneous claims about GB news, Farage or Reform to show me where they have been arrested, charged, presented with a legal case that found them guilty of any of these things as its all against UK law.

If they cannot prove this then they are innocent until proven guilty. It's all smoke and mirrors with the left, every one to the right of Corbynite politics is a hard right thicko. You really could not make it up.

Elbone · 01/08/2024 13:54

VerySadCase · 01/08/2024 13:51

Because it is important for those of us who don't support racism to stand up and be counted. That doesn't mean that we have to get drawn into pointless discussions that just aren't worth the effort.

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You’re in a discussion by choice. I’ve not drawn you into anything.

Stand up to racism. Call it out. Name it! Please!

orchiddottyback · 01/08/2024 13:54

VerySadCase · 01/08/2024 13:51

Because it is important for those of us who don't support racism to stand up and be counted. That doesn't mean that we have to get drawn into pointless discussions that just aren't worth the effort.

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Stand up to racism where, if you spot racism then report it to your beloved police and the criminal justice system will decided if they are being racist or not. You are not judge and jury im afraid.

Until then it's just bait and political point scoring.

So again where is your case and where are your facts?

Elbone · 01/08/2024 13:59

orchiddottyback · 01/08/2024 13:54

Stand up to racism where, if you spot racism then report it to your beloved police and the criminal justice system will decided if they are being racist or not. You are not judge and jury im afraid.

Until then it's just bait and political point scoring.

So again where is your case and where are your facts?

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I just find it eerily similar to how some people talk about JK Rowling.
”She’s a bigot. She wants trans people dead” with nothing but insults and deflection if you dare ask for evidence of these claims.

Northernnature · 01/08/2024 14:00

RosaRoja · 01/08/2024 13:02

First time I see a Tory government called lefty. It was Tories we had past 14 years, right?

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That's because of where you get your info. I constantly see them derided as left wing - highest taxes since 1945, highest public spending every, open borders, high crime /very weak on law and order including crimes against women, more or less totally went along with gender ideology. What's not left wing about them? Labour are merely further left. There was no party apart from reform for anyone right to vote for and most 2019 tory voters abandoned them which is why Labour won a landslide with less votes than Corbyn and turnout very low.

VerySadCase · 01/08/2024 14:00

Elbone · 01/08/2024 13:54

You’re in a discussion by choice. I’ve not drawn you into anything.

Stand up to racism. Call it out. Name it! Please!

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Like I say, I've been on these boards for many years. I have named it on countless occasions. Called it out. Reported it etc.

I'm tired of it now and I can't be arsed. There will be others who are less weary of the whole thing who will find the energy to make the case. I'm just too depressed by it all to keep on arguing the toss with people who have already made up their minds. There is no point.

RosaRoja · 01/08/2024 14:01

A few instances were posted a couple of pages back. Not racism? Taken out of context? When even NF had to admit he was fucking wrong to speak the way he did. Lots of dog whistle too.

AvrielFinch · 01/08/2024 14:03

What are Reform’s policies?
The party will fight the election on immigration, pledging an “employer immigration tax” on companies that choose to employ overseas workers instead of British citizens.
This would see businesses paying a national insurance “premium” of 20% of an employee’s salary, as opposed to 13.8%, if the worker is from overseas.
The party has vowed to freeze lawful immigration with the exception of healthcare and leave the European Convention on Human Rights.
Reform has also said it would abolish the Government’s net zero targets and “stand up for British culture, identity and values”.
Reform UK has also called for a new NHS funding model. It wants the next government to look to countries like France, which has insurance-based health models. Health outcomes in the UK have fallen behind a number of European neighbours, but they are spending more money on health.

Their policies make no overall coherent sense. They have no meaningful economic policy. They simply want to stop nearly all immigration, give more tax cuts to businesses, and privatise the NHS.

RosaRoja · 01/08/2024 14:05

Northernnature · 01/08/2024 14:00

That's because of where you get your info. I constantly see them derided as left wing - highest taxes since 1945, highest public spending every, open borders, high crime /very weak on law and order including crimes against women, more or less totally went along with gender ideology. What's not left wing about them? Labour are merely further left. There was no party apart from reform for anyone right to vote for and most 2019 tory voters abandoned them which is why Labour won a landslide with less votes than Corbyn and turnout very low.

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How far to the right are you if the Tories are left? Can you just decide where you place your centre? You do realise the Tory party has been sliding to the right - by their own admission! - so just how much more to the right are you? You can be as much as you want as long as you obey the law and don’t stir hatred.

neverbeenskiing · 01/08/2024 14:06

orchiddottyback · 01/08/2024 13:52

Exactly and when you get posters like a previous one claiming "The leader of the party has repeatedly made racist, Islamophobic and xenophobic statements." but yet when you ask for actual evidence. They suddenly vanish or try to deflect from answering. If you make a claim you need to back it up with facts.

I would just like one of these people who are putting out erroneous claims about GB news, Farage or Reform to show me where they have been arrested, charged, presented with a legal case that found them guilty of any of these things as its all against UK law.

If they cannot prove this then they are innocent until proven guilty. It's all smoke and mirrors with the left, every one to the right of Corbynite politics is a hard right thicko. You really could not make it up.

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Yeah, that was me.

I haven't vanished, and I literally posted a list of racist and offensive remarks made by Farage.

The list was not exhaustive, there are others if you can be bothered to use Google.

RosaRoja · 01/08/2024 14:07

Northernnature · 01/08/2024 14:00

That's because of where you get your info. I constantly see them derided as left wing - highest taxes since 1945, highest public spending every, open borders, high crime /very weak on law and order including crimes against women, more or less totally went along with gender ideology. What's not left wing about them? Labour are merely further left. There was no party apart from reform for anyone right to vote for and most 2019 tory voters abandoned them which is why Labour won a landslide with less votes than Corbyn and turnout very low.

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Also, “derided”? I thought that was a lefty holier-than-though behaviour, no? It might have been someone else who claimed that.

2dogsandabudgie · 01/08/2024 14:07

ilovesooty · 01/08/2024 12:36

I don't see anything wrong with either of those interventions.

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You'd begrudge an elderly person an extra £10 at Christmas. Wow.

You're as bad as the person on another thread who suggested that elderly people struggling to pay their heating bills should save towards it by not going out once a week for a coffee. This same person then said that they were planning to save £100,000 for their 2 children to go to uni and another £100,000 to help with house deposits.

Absolutely no idea what poverty is. Yep the left are really starting to show their true colours.

Womanofcustard · 01/08/2024 14:11

Elbone · 01/08/2024 13:59

I just find it eerily similar to how some people talk about JK Rowling.
”She’s a bigot. She wants trans people dead” with nothing but insults and deflection if you dare ask for evidence of these claims.

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I was thinking the same by page 2! By page 15, I couldn’t see that any proof hadbeen give.

FayeGreener · 01/08/2024 14:11

I too would like to see a list of Reform’s racist policies.

RosaRoja · 01/08/2024 14:11

Elbone · 01/08/2024 13:59

I just find it eerily similar to how some people talk about JK Rowling.
”She’s a bigot. She wants trans people dead” with nothing but insults and deflection if you dare ask for evidence of these claims.

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I mean, it would be nice for once to have a thread without the trans debate being shoehorned in, but are you honestly saying you’ve seen NO evidence whatsoever in your entire life in the past few years of the racism referred to? Not even the one posted here? For starters. Let’s leave JKR for another thread, incidentally one in which I might agree with you.

orchiddottyback · 01/08/2024 14:12

neverbeenskiing · 01/08/2024 14:06

Yeah, that was me.

I haven't vanished, and I literally posted a list of racist and offensive remarks made by Farage.

The list was not exhaustive, there are others if you can be bothered to use Google.

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No what you did was take a couple of snippets out of who knows where and presented them for facts. That is no different than how people used to write poison pen letters and the god awful "TicToc" trial by 10 second clip generation, with snippets of information not providing the entire context..

You have not provided full links or full discussion or written evidence of this and you certainly cannot pull out individual words and phrases and claim it is fact.

That is not evidence or facts that is twisting the narrative and providing a false account of what was said. So Ill ask you again provide us with a link to your source or fully documented evidence of what was said that was wrong.

If he was wrong why was he not either pulled up by ofcom or investigated by the police?

You seem to have very very loose definition of evidence when you selectively pull out phrases or wording, completely out of context.

2dogsandabudgie · 01/08/2024 14:14

AvrielFinch · 01/08/2024 14:03

What are Reform’s policies?
The party will fight the election on immigration, pledging an “employer immigration tax” on companies that choose to employ overseas workers instead of British citizens.
This would see businesses paying a national insurance “premium” of 20% of an employee’s salary, as opposed to 13.8%, if the worker is from overseas.
The party has vowed to freeze lawful immigration with the exception of healthcare and leave the European Convention on Human Rights.
Reform has also said it would abolish the Government’s net zero targets and “stand up for British culture, identity and values”.
Reform UK has also called for a new NHS funding model. It wants the next government to look to countries like France, which has insurance-based health models. Health outcomes in the UK have fallen behind a number of European neighbours, but they are spending more money on health.

Their policies make no overall coherent sense. They have no meaningful economic policy. They simply want to stop nearly all immigration, give more tax cuts to businesses, and privatise the NHS.

Actually I do think immigration needs to stop until we have dealt with the backlog of people that are already here. In the last 4 days just over 1000 people have come over in small boats. We can't just keep adding to the number, it's unsustainable.

orchiddottyback · 01/08/2024 14:15

AvrielFinch · 01/08/2024 14:03

What are Reform’s policies?
The party will fight the election on immigration, pledging an “employer immigration tax” on companies that choose to employ overseas workers instead of British citizens.
This would see businesses paying a national insurance “premium” of 20% of an employee’s salary, as opposed to 13.8%, if the worker is from overseas.
The party has vowed to freeze lawful immigration with the exception of healthcare and leave the European Convention on Human Rights.
Reform has also said it would abolish the Government’s net zero targets and “stand up for British culture, identity and values”.
Reform UK has also called for a new NHS funding model. It wants the next government to look to countries like France, which has insurance-based health models. Health outcomes in the UK have fallen behind a number of European neighbours, but they are spending more money on health.

Their policies make no overall coherent sense. They have no meaningful economic policy. They simply want to stop nearly all immigration, give more tax cuts to businesses, and privatise the NHS.

Where is your citation and link to this? just wondering.

Lavenderblossoms · 01/08/2024 14:15

I wouldn't dislike someone for being right wing unless they were massively racist.
The two are not necessarily a link.
Just like being left doesn't make me a snowflake does it.

I just think should be able to discuss these things without it getting personal. Some people though like to make their views their whole personality.

I personally believe we should listen to all views, even if you disagree with them, because open discussions are a good thing to see all points of view. Maybe even things not even thought of before.

By listening, we learn to understand each other, even if we don't agree.

I don't think a lot of people have that attitude unfortunately. It's their way or the highway. I'm not so rigid in this life.

Musing over.

AvrielFinch · 01/08/2024 14:19

There is no point in a discussion here. It just seems to be about name calling.
We can all be friends with who we want to be, it is not up to random strangers on the internet to tell us who we should be friends with.
And no I will not be friends with anyone who voted Reform UK.

Elbone · 01/08/2024 14:20

RosaRoja · 01/08/2024 14:11

I mean, it would be nice for once to have a thread without the trans debate being shoehorned in, but are you honestly saying you’ve seen NO evidence whatsoever in your entire life in the past few years of the racism referred to? Not even the one posted here? For starters. Let’s leave JKR for another thread, incidentally one in which I might agree with you.

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Are you asking me if I have witnessed racism ever?
or are you asking me if I’ve witnessed politicians being racist?
or are you asking me whether I’ve seen reform’s racist policies?

I will draw similarities where I see them. Stating millions of people are “bigots” because they’re racist/ transphobes without any evidence is concerning to me.

neverbeenskiing · 01/08/2024 14:22

orchiddottyback · 01/08/2024 14:12

No what you did was take a couple of snippets out of who knows where and presented them for facts. That is no different than how people used to write poison pen letters and the god awful "TicToc" trial by 10 second clip generation, with snippets of information not providing the entire context..

You have not provided full links or full discussion or written evidence of this and you certainly cannot pull out individual words and phrases and claim it is fact.

That is not evidence or facts that is twisting the narrative and providing a false account of what was said. So Ill ask you again provide us with a link to your source or fully documented evidence of what was said that was wrong.

If he was wrong why was he not either pulled up by ofcom or investigated by the police?

You seem to have very very loose definition of evidence when you selectively pull out phrases or wording, completely out of context.

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You have not provided full links or full text of the discussion or written.

This is Mumsnet not a peer-reviewed academic journal, I am not obliged to provide you with a full reference list.

I was asked for examples of remarks Farage has made that were racist, islamaphobic or xenophobic so I listed a handful. These have been widely reported by multiple news sources, not just left-wing news sources but news sources across the political spectrum.

I'm not on trial and my opinions are not on trial, so I don't have to provide you with "evidence" that meets your particular requirements. I believe Nigel Farage to be a racist. I believe Reform to be a racist party. You are free to believe what you like.