Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

THe upper middle class favour immigration

406 replies

MeouwCat · 31/07/2024 22:59

The upper middle class favour immigration because the alternative would be paying locals more and that would men them paying higher taxes to support the wage demands by care workers/Nurses/council workers etc.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
SharonEllis · 01/08/2024 09:05

Some actual figures....
NB 'worker' visas include skilled workers. You can't just turn up & live here. Illegal immigration is a small proportion of overall immigration & hidden in those 'illegal' immigrants are sometimes highly skilled people escaping persecution etc because we have closed down most legal routes to refugees/asylum seekers. I've never met a refugee that couldn't speak at least 3 languages.

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/immigration-system-statistics-year-ending-june-2023/why-do-people-come-to-the-uk-to-work

User8646382 · 01/08/2024 09:07

BrigadierEtienneGerard · 01/08/2024 08:50

What's always shafted the working class is its own stupidity.

HTH.

(Working class South Londoner here).

The working class are not thick. If they were, there would have been no need for the ruling class to (mostly) abolish grammar schools, which really did allow for social mobility.

There was far too much ‘levelling up’ in the 1960s, with those bright working class kids who had benefited from Eton-level educations actually changing the fabric of society. This horrified the ruling class and they made sure to put a stop to it, under the guise of ‘inclusivity’ (which basically meant the status quo). So-called ‘socialists’ despise the working class.

LadyRoughDiamond · 01/08/2024 09:09

The fact is, our birth rate is currently dangerously low, to the point where we don’t have enough tax paying workers to pay for and care for our aging population. The easiest way out of this is immigration. It’s not just the UK - it’s an issue across all developed nations. If you want a peek at the future, take a look at what’s happening in Japan:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-66850943

Acapulco12 · 01/08/2024 09:12

SharonEllis · 01/08/2024 06:57

How much would that cost? Can you point to a nationalised model that works?

Yes, I can - railways. The ones that have been nationalised work better than when they were privatised, although I know it’s still early days. And when the NHS receives sufficient investment, it works. Obviously I don’t know how much it would cost.

Acapulco12 · 01/08/2024 09:15

SharonEllis · 01/08/2024 06:57

How much would that cost? Can you point to a nationalised model that works?

Yes, I can - railways. The ones that have been nationalised work better than when they were privatised, although I know it’s still early days. And when the NHS receives sufficient investment, it works. Also when private companies fail, taxpayers pick up the cost anyway, so it is in our interest to research the potential of narionalising companies. I don’t know how much it would cost.

thefireplace · 01/08/2024 09:16

User8646382 · 01/08/2024 09:07

The working class are not thick. If they were, there would have been no need for the ruling class to (mostly) abolish grammar schools, which really did allow for social mobility.

There was far too much ‘levelling up’ in the 1960s, with those bright working class kids who had benefited from Eton-level educations actually changing the fabric of society. This horrified the ruling class and they made sure to put a stop to it, under the guise of ‘inclusivity’ (which basically meant the status quo). So-called ‘socialists’ despise the working class.

The UK has been governed mostly by the Conservatives in the post war period.

Any improvements to WC conditions have come mainly from so called socialists, min wage, worker rights, council housing, healthcare, even the open university.

Do Grammar schools lead to more social mobility? the parents i know who have used them, are well off & use v expensive tutoring to make sure they gain entry.

Wouldn't it be great if all state schools offered fantastic education and opportunities in music sport etc etc instead of these being just available to the better off?

ShiteRider · 01/08/2024 09:20

DogsDinner · 01/08/2024 08:41

@ShiteRider

We wouldn’t expect anyone else to do a difficult job for the love of it, and minimum wage. I’ve known quite a few care workers in my time, and they’ve all liked the job. But it can be very hard physically and emotionally.

Caring for people with dementia can result in some pretty violent and disgusting situations for the carer to deal with. Yes it can be a very rewarding job, but we obviously need to pay more so people will put up with the very difficult bits.

If we want to reduce migration, which the majority of people do, we have to find ways of recruiting British staff.

My figures come from The Migration Observatory at the University of Oxford, which seems to be a factual and unbiased source of information. As far as I can remember, the NHS is staffed by roughly 81/19 percent British/Immigrant, same as makes up the population. You can probably find how that is broken down by job on there.

Thanks for the information. I think there are a few difficult jobs which are vocations rather than done for the money, but agree that none are so low paid as carers. There are some places which will pay higher now in recognition of the work they do, although having said that, some of the best staff are still the international carers.

User8646382 · 01/08/2024 09:23

thefireplace · 01/08/2024 09:16

The UK has been governed mostly by the Conservatives in the post war period.

Any improvements to WC conditions have come mainly from so called socialists, min wage, worker rights, council housing, healthcare, even the open university.

Do Grammar schools lead to more social mobility? the parents i know who have used them, are well off & use v expensive tutoring to make sure they gain entry.

Wouldn't it be great if all state schools offered fantastic education and opportunities in music sport etc etc instead of these being just available to the better off?

I’m talking about a specific period in British history, when, yes, grammar schools definitely did allow for social mobility. And as soon as this started to have an effect on British society, with the working class actually having some influence for once, they were quickly abolished.

User8646382 · 01/08/2024 09:25

Acapulco12 · 01/08/2024 09:15

Yes, I can - railways. The ones that have been nationalised work better than when they were privatised, although I know it’s still early days. And when the NHS receives sufficient investment, it works. Also when private companies fail, taxpayers pick up the cost anyway, so it is in our interest to research the potential of narionalising companies. I don’t know how much it would cost.

Do you actually remember British Rail? I do, vividly, and the words ‘worked better’ do not spring to mind.

SharonEllis · 01/08/2024 09:26

Acapulco12 · 01/08/2024 09:15

Yes, I can - railways. The ones that have been nationalised work better than when they were privatised, although I know it’s still early days. And when the NHS receives sufficient investment, it works. Also when private companies fail, taxpayers pick up the cost anyway, so it is in our interest to research the potential of narionalising companies. I don’t know how much it would cost.

I meant a nationalised model of social care. I have no problem with nationalisation in principle. Its just that nationalisation involves both upfront & ongoing costs and so you do need to know how much it will cost & where the money comes from.

SharonEllis · 01/08/2024 09:32

User8646382 · 01/08/2024 09:07

The working class are not thick. If they were, there would have been no need for the ruling class to (mostly) abolish grammar schools, which really did allow for social mobility.

There was far too much ‘levelling up’ in the 1960s, with those bright working class kids who had benefited from Eton-level educations actually changing the fabric of society. This horrified the ruling class and they made sure to put a stop to it, under the guise of ‘inclusivity’ (which basically meant the status quo). So-called ‘socialists’ despise the working class.

Eton level education?!?! You dont seem to understand what eton is about...
Anyway the idea that grammar schools worked has been pretty thorougjly debunked

.magazine.alumni.cam.ac.uk/this-idea-must-die-grammar-schools-are-a-tool-in-promoting-social-mobility/#:~:text=So%20most%20working%20class%20kids,mobility%2C%20but%20neither%20did%20comprehensives.

GingerPirate · 01/08/2024 09:39

Hi, Comrade!
👋😂

ConsuelaHammock · 01/08/2024 09:43

EnchantedElf · 31/07/2024 23:15

Or maybe less educated people are more negatively affected by immigration?

This

MistressoftheDarkSide · 01/08/2024 09:43

Grammar schools are an interesting one.

I passed the 11+ in 1980 along with about 9 other children. We five girls went off to much acclaim. Interestingly we didn't know we were taking the 11+. There had been no tutoring and our average C of E primary didn't have languages or anything like that on the curriculum, yet still we passed.

My family have always been genteel poor, making tiny climbs up the ladder from my Nana in service and my Mum finally ending up in secretarial work. I remember a grandmother clock being sold to pay for my exclusive uniform - it cost £200 in 1980 and was considered a worthy sacrifice.

But my background was vastly different to the majority of other pupils who largely came from private schools and whose parents had money, so social exclusion was a bugbear. Add in the weird inverse snobbery at home and while I came away with a decent set of O-levels and was pointed at Oxbridge, I couldn't take the pressure nor fit in.

I'm still poor. Poorer now than I've ever been before because I've put family and caring responsibilities first every time.

My son ended up at the same primary school. In his last year it was revealed to me that his teacher didn't think it was worth him doing the 11+ despite being "bright" - most of his friends had been tutored for it. I had no idea the system had changed. I didn't think to ask. I felt like the world's worst mother. He did sit the exam and missed by about 5 marks. On reflection he would have struggled socially the same as I did. His current career as a landscape gardener is his choice and I'm proud of how hard he works.

So I now think that education should be of a high standard for everyone. The original concept might have been a good idea, but it has been overtaken by the changes in the modern world.

Everything about global society is changing very quickly and we need a better, more equitable approach to pretty much everything.

User8646382 · 01/08/2024 10:05

MistressoftheDarkSide · 01/08/2024 09:43

Grammar schools are an interesting one.

I passed the 11+ in 1980 along with about 9 other children. We five girls went off to much acclaim. Interestingly we didn't know we were taking the 11+. There had been no tutoring and our average C of E primary didn't have languages or anything like that on the curriculum, yet still we passed.

My family have always been genteel poor, making tiny climbs up the ladder from my Nana in service and my Mum finally ending up in secretarial work. I remember a grandmother clock being sold to pay for my exclusive uniform - it cost £200 in 1980 and was considered a worthy sacrifice.

But my background was vastly different to the majority of other pupils who largely came from private schools and whose parents had money, so social exclusion was a bugbear. Add in the weird inverse snobbery at home and while I came away with a decent set of O-levels and was pointed at Oxbridge, I couldn't take the pressure nor fit in.

I'm still poor. Poorer now than I've ever been before because I've put family and caring responsibilities first every time.

My son ended up at the same primary school. In his last year it was revealed to me that his teacher didn't think it was worth him doing the 11+ despite being "bright" - most of his friends had been tutored for it. I had no idea the system had changed. I didn't think to ask. I felt like the world's worst mother. He did sit the exam and missed by about 5 marks. On reflection he would have struggled socially the same as I did. His current career as a landscape gardener is his choice and I'm proud of how hard he works.

So I now think that education should be of a high standard for everyone. The original concept might have been a good idea, but it has been overtaken by the changes in the modern world.

Everything about global society is changing very quickly and we need a better, more equitable approach to pretty much everything.

1980 was not 1950. By 1980, most grammar schools had already been abolished.

It was the working class kids born in the 1940s and 1950s who benefited from grammar schools in this country. And yes, they were obviously the brightest kids, but so what? You don’t bring about equality by levelling down, which is what happened.

HappierTimesAhead · 01/08/2024 10:09

MeouwCat · 31/07/2024 23:19

Who is really shafting the working class, then?. The upper middle class.

Extreme Capitalism is shafting the working class.

SharonEllis · 01/08/2024 10:30

User8646382 · 01/08/2024 10:05

1980 was not 1950. By 1980, most grammar schools had already been abolished.

It was the working class kids born in the 1940s and 1950s who benefited from grammar schools in this country. And yes, they were obviously the brightest kids, but so what? You don’t bring about equality by levelling down, which is what happened.

There is no evidence that grammar schools benefitted more than a small minority of wc kids. Many more negatively impacted by being consigned to poor schools or being seen as being thick, lazy etc. It reinforced class rather than breaking it down. Much better to improve education & training for all. That doesnt have to be levelling down.

And I posted a link above about grammars

Coughsweet · 01/08/2024 10:33

My mum massively benefited from 1950s grammar schools as did my PILs. I’m dead against them now - my friend lives in a grammar school areas where local prep schools promote themselves in the basis of their success in grammar school placing. That’s not social mobility, that’s entrenching privilege.

Winter2020 · 01/08/2024 10:44

LBFseBrom · 01/08/2024 00:11

It does not shaft the working class. Many immigrants are prepared to do jobs that the 'indigenous population' refuse. I can't imagine many 'English' people being eager to pick turnips or clean very dirty houses. I admire their work ethic, also how they move up as time goes on and often do very well; their children do even better.

Saying the 'upper middle classes' favour immigrants is something of a sweeping statement. They vary in opinion like any other section of society.

Personally, and I am not 'upper' middle class in sociological terms, just ordinary middle class, I have no objection to immigrants. I am a Londoner and have always enjoyed multiculturalism. We are all human beings and, at times, most need a helping hand.

I saw this post on another internet forum earlier, and concur::

"I’ve seen a resurgence of Tommy two names Robinson posts in my timeline, it seems that some of my “friends” subscribe to his nonsense, so rather than giving each of their posts an algorithm bump here’s what I’d comment.
People who write “stop the boats” or “British citizens first” are the antitheses of everything good and moral.
I don’t care where people are from, I don’t care what nationality they are, come join us and have a better life.
Yes it would be expected for them to obey the law and fit in with some local customs and most do, and we also get a lot from immigrants hence our most recognised national dish is Indian food.
Britain is a multicultural country, most of our best things were copied or stolen from other cultures.
The world is better off with diversity. Tommy Robinson is the polar opposite of everything I stand for. It’s nationalism at its worst.
If you think being British or English really makes you better than anyone else, deport yourself to another planet as you are the problem.
Luckily over time the younger generations see no borders so a passport free world is a real possibility. I probably won’t be alive for it but every step in that direction is the right thing to do."

All reactions:
53Christine Lalanne and 52 others

You do know that there are hundreds of millions of people who would love to move to the UK given the invitation? Hundreds of millions, if anything, is an underestimate. There would be no functioning infrastructure left if hundreds of millions of people came. People that think we can "heal the world" live in cloud cuckoo land.

Beezknees · 01/08/2024 10:46

I am solidly working class/under class and I'm in favour of immigration.

Crikeyalmighty · 01/08/2024 11:06

This is quite a complicated situation- setting my stall out I am not a Tory or remotely right wing but the idea that all working class people are poor and shafted is for the birds. My friend is doing up her house and so far her builder has gone awol for periods because they were in Barbados for 3 weeks in the winter followed by 2 weeks in Florida in the late spring and now has told her he's off to Turkey for 2 weeks in September. I'm not saying that's not ok- just stating that not all working class are struggling. He's doing way way better than most 'middle class' people I know.

The simple fact is life isn't fair and yes some tough unpleasant jobs don't pay that well- on the plus side they are usually quite easy to get employment in with few qualifications . Life is about choices, and the fact is depending where you live a high paid interesting job may not be available and for which you are qualified for on your doorstep. My son made the choice at 19 to move to London for a job with better prospects and £12k better salary- it meant house sharing and not being on our doorstep but he progressed and it was 'a choice' - he didn't sit round moaning that the local wages were shit and why couldn't he get a £30k plus job at 19 on the doorstep. He also did day release as part of this .

Some careers and jobs simply require you to be 'in the office' or on client sites in certain locations, be that London, Manchester or Cardiff- few are actually WFH anywhere early in a career. So if you want to earn well be prepared to move and get yourself some decent qualifications- ideally whilst you have no commitments- there are online courses, plus various other options- it's never been easier but some people just cannot be arsed and make poor life choices and then resort to the politics of envy.

I remember during Brexit when a few mums on Twitter and Facebook actually stated they voted for it because they didn't want their kids to be able to move freely to anywhere in the EU- they wanted them round the corner- I was gobsmacked at the selfishness - but there we are.

With regards to immigration- I think this has come to a head because the Tory's were not honest. They never stated they intended to fill gaps in the workforce by allowing vast numbers of immigrants from outside the EU ( and I'm not talking Aussies/kiwis/US) etc - and also allowing their families- rather than younger EU citizens who tended to house are and often needed little in the way of education or health requirements .

As others have said , the reason immigrants with families have housing priority is often because they have children and often quite a few , which gives them more points-a young Indonesian couple with no kids certainly don't get priority.

I do understand people's frustrations on this especially given a housing shortage in the rental sector- both private and social housing. I personally don't think the Tory's should have allowed any families post Brexit , singles or couples only and job dependent too- that's how it worked when we lived in Copenhagen- you had to have private health too for any that were granted visas post Brexit. High earners with families were often given visas in shortage occupations but you had no recourse to benefits or social housing for a very long time.

It is not wages that are necessarily the big issue in the UK- it's costs- particularly housing costs if you can't get social housing- it's council tax, it's utilities, it's childcare costs - the benefits system has made it such that it doesn't really pay to work full time if on low income and it certainly doesn't pay to buy a house ( not that this is often possible unless you live in a very cheap area) and it certainly doesn't pay to be honest and get married in many situations sadly- so we end up with a bunch of people fiddling the system by lying about domestic arrangements.

It's small things too such as an awful lot of 55 year olds drawing off their pension plans and no longer earning or paying much tax in many cases ( I'm not blaming them , I would probably do the same if I had been able to , but unless chronic ill health is at play I would up this to 60)

With regards to those thinking Farage is the answer- how do you think he would have paid £20k personal allowances when the country is skint? It was fantasy football- but politics instead. My guess is that if it was up to him , benefits would totally go apart from the disabled and very chronically ill. To quote Norman tebbutt ( you need to be as old as me to remember this arse) it would be 'on your bike' - and yes you would be expected to do 3 shitty jobs if you wanted to keep your house and were low paid- I think minimum wage would go too- and NHS would indeed be a pay in system and not remotely like the French or German system-more like the US system. Some would approve of all this but ironically some of the idiots voting for it would be the hardest hit. Very low immigration would mean you still had poor services too , although there would be more take up on low paid work as more people were desparate for income if any kind.

The country needs a huge reset. I do think Labour have the mindset to be in the right place, a lack of cash and a trashed credit rating for the UK are the issue. We need to change people's mindsets to wanting to 'get on' - not just 'get by' - we need to prioritise affordable housing for locals, we need to get rid of Airbnb of whole units ( sorry for those who like it or profit from it but it's ruining the rental sector in so many areas) we need to stop ridiculing experts and listening the the 1 crank who likes a particular ideology (Patrick Minford I'm
Looking at you) and more than anything we need to pursue some more appropriate policies with the EU that encourages cooperation in key areas, gets trade flowing again and encourages investment. Even if that is a half way house like a Norway deal. Brexit may work for the average builder who has got rid of his Czech competitor, it doesn't work for so many other businesses who have any international component to them at all- be that supermarkets or car parts!

ll09sm · 01/08/2024 11:20

thefireplace · 01/08/2024 08:48

Lets look at some of these 6m you suggest we get into work:

I ve worked with some of the long term unemployed, in many ways, they are unemployable, MH, dependencies, extremely low education, no transferable skills ie cannot drive/no car, so unable to work in coummunity social care.

Many would need a great deal of support to get into sustainable employment.

People who have taken early retirement, don't need to work, are you suggesting we force them too?

Long term sick... well good luck solving the crisis in the NHS and even if someone is given that new knee or hip, the work they might be able to do afterwards will be limited, many are over weight, older & may well have caring responsibilities, like looking after their grandkids so their own children can work.

SAHM's and Students make up the rest of your notional 6m, they are already busy & at best could only work very limited hours.

Simplistic solutions rarely work.

Excuses and anecdotes pulled out of thin air are even rarer in being effective.

Soroe · 01/08/2024 11:22

LadyRoughDiamond · 01/08/2024 09:09

The fact is, our birth rate is currently dangerously low, to the point where we don’t have enough tax paying workers to pay for and care for our aging population. The easiest way out of this is immigration. It’s not just the UK - it’s an issue across all developed nations. If you want a peek at the future, take a look at what’s happening in Japan:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-66850943

This number will only increase too as inheritances kick in. Lots of people will just stop working as mindset towards money is different in the generations below.

thefireplace · 01/08/2024 11:29

ll09sm · 01/08/2024 11:20

Excuses and anecdotes pulled out of thin air are even rarer in being effective.

Like i said and you don't appear to have any counter argument, these 6m are not itching to get back into work, the vast majority either don't need too, cannot work or have other responsibilities.

LadyRoughDiamond · 01/08/2024 11:34

Soroe · 01/08/2024 11:22

This number will only increase too as inheritances kick in. Lots of people will just stop working as mindset towards money is different in the generations below.

Agreed. I wonder how many of those people rioting over the last couple of nights worked part-time so that their benefits weren’t cut, or stopped work so that they didn’t have to pay child benefit? We need people to work and pay taxes, wherever they’re from.

Swipe left for the next trending thread