Are parents in Cambridge uniquely ineffectual?

[ohrly]

Name change. I apologise for the clickbait title, my observations are based solely on our (primary) school and not all parents here.

We moved here six months ago from a more working-class area. Although that area had its problems, parents generally ensured their kids had basic manners, proper grooming, and weren't violent.

However, at my son's new school, I've noticed a significant lack of manners among many kids. Parents don't seem to enforce them either. The children demand things from their parents and others and are generally rude.

There are a few kids, despite being over seven years old, who frequently hit and push others. Parents respond with mild comments like "Oh no, that's not nice" instead of a more assertive, proportionate reaction like, "Do not hit. If you do that again, we will go home."

Parents also don't seem to enforce boundaries effectively. Instead of saying "5 minutes until we leave the park," they ask, "Are you ready to go now? Okay sweetie, no worries."

Moreover, parents often talk about their kids in a way that suggests the children are in control. They say things like, "Oh, she won't let me..." or "Oh, she doesn't like..." A common issue is kids refusing to let their parents brush their hair, resulting in matted hair.

At parties, no parents watch what's happening, and the kids go quite wild. I've had to stop myself from telling off so many kids.

These observations span a mix of nationalities, but all are middle-class families.
Is this a common occurrence now, or is it specific to Cambridge, this school, or the middle classes? Or am I just going mad?!

I honestly thought I was a super liberal parent until I moved here!

YABU - Stop judging / this isn't a real thing
YANBU - Yes these parents sound dreadful

@LilyBartsHatShop I agree. I too had a toddler who did not want to wear clothes. Funny how so many of these gentle parented kids want to wear the same kind of clothes? Rather than choosing garish coloured clothing that does not fit into the parents aesthetic.

You are in for the confirmist!🤣🤣🤣

No, I think you are in for a child that do understand the existence of rules and will likely understand he has to follow them. But then if he still wants to go iut butt naked at 11, I would start worrying 🤣🤣🌺

You’ve unlocked a core memory of mine, op. That of the family that moved next door to us during the 1980’s. We used to jokingly call them ‘The Modern Parents’ after the Viz skit (who remembers Tarquín and Cressida? 😂). Anyway. They were from… Cambridge! So it’s probably been going on for generations there.

In a decade I have seen just one child come to our Cambridge city school in their pyjamas. They have very significant disabilities. I don’t think it would have been any different if we lived in Barnsley or Southampton.

I think you need to leave whatever little bubble you’re living in and explore other areas - I promise you there’s parts of Cambridge where there’s few academics, lots of people with very ordinary jobs and children and where I do not recognise the picture you or others are painting. No one I know gives a name to their type of parenting, no one is letting their child rule the roost and no one is letting their non disabled child out in pyjamas.

And yes, I live well inside the boundary of Cambridge city, albeit not the absolute centre.

Hi @ohrly,

I just reread all your posts and I actually think that the behaviour you are seeing is far beyond anything I have ever seen in Cambridge. (We've been out of primary for some time so I haven't seen what primary age behaviour looks like post covid).

Pre-covid I'm used to seeing some primary school Cambridge kids that are struggling with verbal conflict. I mean things like kids saying "why can't I be a unicorn!?" to their slightly fierce looking female friend, and bursting into tears. That's the worst I've seen though.

In our primary school there was never any hitting or causing havoc, with or without parents present. Any conflict was definitely verbal.

I definitely never saw anybody hit at all, even in reception. Literally not once.

I slightly wonder if it might be a post-covid phenomenon? Iv'e seen other long threads on MN about how child behaviour has got really out of control post-covid and how teachers are really struggling, which suggests to me that parents are probably also struggling. Could it be that? There are a good few threads around on MN about this, which would give you an idea of what people are experiencing.

As I say, I'm no longer in primary age circles post-covid so I have no idea what it's like now in Cambridge.

The only time I've seen a Cambridge child actually seriously violent was a very wealthy secondary kid who clearly had had either a very severe shortage of parenting, or some really bad parent guidance. He had a young friend of mine in a neck lock and my friend was a very concerning colour when he finally extracted himself. That time it was wealth, not academic Cambridge that was the problem. I don't really move in those circles much, so I don't know if it is a general problem.

I may have given an exaggerated impression of "violence" by accident. I mean things like pushing other kids over, roughly pushing through to be first to things, pulling another child off a bike, and hitting if they don't get their way. And as I said in the original post it is just a few kids that do things like this. The rudeness etc. is more widespread.

You could be right about COVID lockdowns having an impact. Certainly, parents and kids were more stressed and less socialised for a few years. (Me and my family included!) I wonder if parents are less sure of what "normal" expectations of children are and are pitching too low?

That's interesting. I never saw blank rudness or violence. That might be a post-covid thing.

The thing that a previous poster mentioned about the civil service is rife here. I mean the thing about being polite on the surface but very passive aggressive under the surface - that's pretty much the established norm as far as I can see.

I wonder if the covid period has made that spill over into something a bit worse?

The rudeness and violence is definitely not something I've seen before. I used to help with a youth organisation for infant school kids and they were all polite, no pushing in, and no violence.

In that group the occassional difficulty was kids being loud indoors when excited but they calmed down when asked.

Small boys do a thing where they stack themselves horizontally, but that is good natured fun.

Sorry, I really don't know what to suggest, except perhaps having a chat with the parents, if that's possible. I know it probably isn't.

It might be worth looking at threads like this one:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5031198-to-think-change-is-desperately-needed-in-schools?page=1

There seem to be some changes going on in the school child population that are causing a bit of heard scratching post-covid.

The other thing that occurred to me (sorry for several posts in a row). I had a lot of problems with discipline at home until I stopped sending DC to school and started home schooling. He's been a golden child since then. It was the same during the lockdown. He came home badly broken from school, and was like a brand new person after the first lockdown.

There was a thread a while back and I can't find it now, but a lot of parents and teachers were saying that the Gove school curriculum is driving kids too hard. They think that when the kids get home they are totally worn out, and the parents can't intervene and sort out problem behaviours because the kids are exhausted and overwhelmed. That was certainly what I found.

I think that is worse post-covid because the teachers are over-stretched and/or there are not enough teachers in school. The kids and families are also struggling so everyone is playing catch-up and not managing.

I think this could be more a thing in Cambridge because kids are driven very very hard at school here. Just at thought anyway.

I live near Cambridge and take my kids there regularly, but I have not observed what you describe OP. Permissive parents are everywhere, same as authoritarian parents. I suspect your child is quite young (?) and as time goes by you will hopefully see that just because you are a parent it doesn't mean that you know everything about parenting ;-). I agree with PP that behavioural issues are more of a problem in deprived areas. Maybe move out into the Fens or to Northamptonshire if Cambridge is too 'liberal' for you.

I don't think I'm ND (although maybe I could be a bit - DS is) but I really relate to this post @CharlotteLucas3 .
There are so many ways to bring up kids - surely no one way is the perfect right way.

I used to be WC but I'm now an academic married to a tech person and have cash for cleaners, eating out etc. I do think that allows you to be more slack in your parenting. You don't have to be so on it because you can outsource some of the housework. You're not worried about social services in the same way as when you're working class so it doesn't matter too much if your kids hair is a bit scruffy etc.
I hope I've brought my kids up to be kind and considerate - they're teens now and I like them!

I sang with a choir in Oxford. There was a 20 minute discussion over whether we should use Church, Medieval or Classical Latin pronunciation…..

"The thing that a previous poster mentioned about the civil service is rife here. I mean the thing about being polite on the surface but very passive aggressive under the surface - that's pretty much the established norm as far as I can see."

You see it on here as well. Being an absolute shit to someone, but wrapping it up in surface polite language. I hate it.

Its a genuine question, why are some people on this thread proud of this kind of thing?

It's just as legitimate as any other interest 🤷🏻‍♀️

They are proud of their good understanding of grammar and languages, and also it is a bit of a standing joke that knowing that sort of things makes you a total knob.

It's the same thing as when we fall about laughing at this youtube video. Partly the video is funny and partly we are laughing at ourselves for being total knobs for finding it funny.

Being interested in grammar and language is fine. It is being proud of their interest that I am questioning.

I think that's just personal preference. Some people like football, some like holidays. Some really really like grammar. If you would like to investigate that further then I think it needs a new thread in the secion of the MN forum called "Pedants' Corner" where you will find lots of people like that.

@TotallyIneffectual You are missing my point. I am well aware of pedants corner and the interest in language and grammar that some people have. I have no problem with that.
But again and again in this thread people post an anecdote that shows they are proud of their interest. As if an interest in grammar and languages is a superior interest. I am asking why that is?

Why a superior interest?

People are proud of liking Manchester United or Taylor Swift. It doesn’t mean they think it makes them superior, does it?

@AvrielFinch Well, I might regret diving in here, but this could be something that responds to your question.
Almost everyone can speak a native language with a degree of innateness from an early age, but there are levels of 'rules' for it that are different when you speak, write and read. You don't really need to be totally aware of these rules, but it will make it easier to read or write if you do find out the patterns, whether this is aged 5 or 25.
Looking at other languages that are not your native one will show you lots of illustrations as to things that are the same, or that work differently, but still show you interesting points about your own and comparative ones (Latin plurals in this case. Look at some variations of Japanese plurals for something that really has a lot more to work out about it than European ones). Reading or writing other languages can be an easier way in than just attempting the listening/ speaking route, in a lot of cases.
Is it a superior interest? No, but some parts of academia have a lot of writing and reading and maybe cultural history (art, music...) as part of the deal, so it can help if you are interested in that. Not everybody has those chances, depending on their education and skills, so it can look superior.
That said, it's a bit like being able to drive, ride a horse, or being able to play snooker or bowl a cricket ball. I can do all of these but these skill sets are at a really low level for me, much as I would love to improve them and have wanted to since my mind was more malleable. It's not my thing. Languages are. But others can get to olympic or formula one standard, play the near perfect game of snooker, and that kind of thing be in their grasp at quite an early age or with much less practice than the majority. That is 'superiority' too but not often sneered at.

I think also particularly with Latin it used to be a mark of someone having been to a "good school". Initially it meant that someone had been to secondary school at all, and then later perhaps an indication that someone had been to a fee paying school or a grammar school. I think the pride they show in understanding Latin is partly a nod to the idea that they have had a good education.

I didn't learn Latin at school or go to a posh school of any kind, but that's the impression I get.

I remember Fifth Avenue from back in the day 🙂

That makes sense. So it is a class marker. We are posh people who went to a good private school.

And no, people do not think they are superior for being passionate about a football team and knowing a lot about it.

Interesting though how many times different people have explained why someone might be interested in languages and grammar, when that is not the question I asked. I would have assumed, obviously wrongly, that people interested in language would have a good understanding of what that language means.