Are parents in Cambridge uniquely ineffectual?

[ohrly]

Name change. I apologise for the clickbait title, my observations are based solely on our (primary) school and not all parents here.

We moved here six months ago from a more working-class area. Although that area had its problems, parents generally ensured their kids had basic manners, proper grooming, and weren't violent.

However, at my son's new school, I've noticed a significant lack of manners among many kids. Parents don't seem to enforce them either. The children demand things from their parents and others and are generally rude.

There are a few kids, despite being over seven years old, who frequently hit and push others. Parents respond with mild comments like "Oh no, that's not nice" instead of a more assertive, proportionate reaction like, "Do not hit. If you do that again, we will go home."

Parents also don't seem to enforce boundaries effectively. Instead of saying "5 minutes until we leave the park," they ask, "Are you ready to go now? Okay sweetie, no worries."

Moreover, parents often talk about their kids in a way that suggests the children are in control. They say things like, "Oh, she won't let me..." or "Oh, she doesn't like..." A common issue is kids refusing to let their parents brush their hair, resulting in matted hair.

At parties, no parents watch what's happening, and the kids go quite wild. I've had to stop myself from telling off so many kids.

These observations span a mix of nationalities, but all are middle-class families.
Is this a common occurrence now, or is it specific to Cambridge, this school, or the middle classes? Or am I just going mad?!

I honestly thought I was a super liberal parent until I moved here!

YABU - Stop judging / this isn't a real thing
YANBU - Yes these parents sound dreadful

Really small classes at secondary equivalent - less than 10. Classes larger in primary years (15 ish).

Yes, I misread your earlier post, sorry. 2019 was the year all the UK Steiner schools had their first Ofsted and most of them performed pretty badly. Cambridge got a 3, as you said.

All of the successful entrepreneurs I know are extremely good with people, which is why they have managed to get so many on board with their ambitions. In my experience, this is even more the case in senior leadership roles in big corps - it's all about being seen as a good company person and having the charm pull in favours (often from a social network they've been cultivating for decades). The Mark Zuckerberg-types are far rarer and tend to be confined to backroom tech roles (or they're completely unemployable). It's a bit of myth that these academics are raising extremely successful children, they're mostly raising a 'type' and often one that struggles with the narrowness of their frequently rather niche interests.

Not in Cambridge but I recognise the parenting you’re describing. I’m regularly told by school and nursery and holiday club staff and other adults how well behaved and polite my children are, and I’m sure it’s because we have boundaries and enforce rules where other parents say “she won’t let me…” “he doesn’t want to go to bed until 10pm…” and “yes, you can have three ice creams for lunch darling…” etc.

Hi op,

it is a misunderstanding. What you hear is different from what you are used to but they do mean the same thing.

you notice a difference in the children actions, this also does not have the exact same meaning . Of course hitting is hitting but I would suggest you stop telling kids off and observe. By all means keep your kid out if not feeling comfortable but learning how it works in that different way would be an important step…I think.

good luck🌺

On this thread was several times mentioned that there is this difference between children challenging authority and the obedient, calmer ones, who then grow up into the corresponding adults, and that the first variant is more strongly connected with being creative and inventive, and that it is not a positive thing to be too pliant.

But I, too, think that it's more than just these extremes and especially, that when growing up, people start to learn the nuances - if their parents or caregivers let them see the nuances.

There are situations where you are part of a society, and in order for that society to function and people living in close quarters to each other, it's relevant that everyone adheres to the same rules, is fair and doesn't shove others under the bus. That does not mean you need to carry the burden for everyone.

On the other hand, there are situations where you question authority and unfairness, point out errors and stand your ground - for example not believing everything a politician or influencer says (but who does that anyways).

Then there are middle grounds: school is where you learn new things, but of course there may be situations where teachers or fellow students are not fair.

Or the contradiction that you as a parent might criticize a badly run city administration but still treat an individual town clerk you encounter with reasonable politeness and the understanding that they have the same value as a person as you have and are not universally responsible for the whole mess.

I doubt anyone wants to raise obedient little work drones with no own mind, but being considerate isn't the opposite of having an inquisitive mind and questioning authorities.

Besides, people thinking they and their kids are the cool exception to the mainstream only works as long as not too many others do the same. If everyone is like that and does not care at all, they would see more of being on the receiving side of that behaviour (as shown in that "Lord Of The Flies at the playground" example someone posted).

(I very much do not mean parenting of ND kids that some people describe; that, to me, is something different).

and is 'penes' pronounced like 'pens' or 'pe-knees'?

@ForestAtTheSea

I doubt anyone wants to raise obedient little work drones with no own mind, but being considerate isn't the opposite of having an inquisitive mind and questioning authorities.

I agree completely. But having grown up in this world I think parents operating in it perceive this to be a bit of a duality.

They do often tolerate or fail to challenge antisocial behaviour on the grounds that children are “experimenting” or “pushing boundaries”.

I think extremes of permissiveness and authority are in their own ways equally damaging for children and good parents find a middle ground and are responsive to the needs of the child in the moment as opposed to adhering to any particular dogma.

@twentythirty - the number of times I’ve heard the two high fliers vs SAHM (during the day). It really isn’t true and perpetuates a rubbish notion. Parents are parents - whether they work or not. All single mothers who work bring up “sub-optimal” kids? Just as anecdotally as you, all my friends worked, as did I and my husband, and the kids have all turned out fine. Probably because the parents were broadly decent, caring people who still spent time with them. I also know several kids of SAHMs with mental problems, still over reliant. It’s surely not a causative factor of itself, or if you know it to be true please provide the evidence. Many thanks

I think there are a lot of families who can’t punish their children in traditional ways because there is a greater understanding and recognition of what works with ND now. So on that I think you need to live and let live and be prepared to take your kids out of a situation if it’s going south. Your kids you can discipline how you want to.

Depends how you define "town". The centre is pretty small, but there are play areas at Christ's Pieces, Petersfield Garden, Jesus Green, Shelley Row... most people don't live right in the centre anyway; the buildings are mostly colleges and college-owned accommodation, shops, cafés, restaurants, bars etc.

There are lots of parks and green spaces if you go a bit further out of the centre, where most people live. Lots of green space along the river which is lovely.

I'm biased but I think it's a great place to live and bring up kids. I avoid taking them into the town centre though (weekends and tourist season) as it is too busy and crowded, you're right.

You edited your post and now my reply makes no sense at all 🤦🏻‍♀️😂

'Stop telling kids off and observe?' So if as pp has stated and her dc is being assaulted with a fish slice, don't tell the violent one off and see what happens?

The middle class ones don't end up feeding into the poor attendance stats. They end up pulling them out in favour of 'home educating' them when the kids seemingly can't cope with the demands of school.

@ForestAtTheSea . Besides, people thinking they and their kids are the cool exception to the mainstream only works as long as not too many others do the same. If everyone is like that and does not care at all, they would see more of being on the receiving side of that behaviour (as shown in that "Lord Of The Flies at the playground" example someone posted).

I agree with you - my musings were more observational rather than lauding the behaviour/parenting in question.

I was brought up in a 'children should be seen but not heard, mustn't annoy anyone or step on anyone's toes' kind of way. I was taught to anticipate the needs of others and remove myself from space that other people might want to occupy. For example, I would never in a million years have blocked the pavement from a very young age - that would have received a snappy response from my mother to "stop getting in the way, GoFigure. Watch out for who is around you!" I was expected from age 3/4 if not earlier to be aware of others and would have been roughly grabbed and relocated if in the way. Whereas nowadays I frequently have to side-step little people who are (and their parents also) completely oblivious to other people in the vicinity. I don't mind but it is a difference to how I was brought up. I wasn't particularly confident at age 20 but more and more I've thought "fuck it!" as getting older. And like many women, I suspect, it's taken me my 20s and a good chunk of my 30s to learn to impose appropriate professional and personal boundaries.

Interestingly enough, my mother is a much more relaxed grandparent than parent and openly admits to being far too concerned about what people thought when she was bringing us up. She eye-balls anyone who dares to tut-tut and often tells me to 'let them play, they're only having fun!' when I moderate their behaviour 😂.

I am much more relaxed about my children taking up public space than my parents were, but I agree that there are limits otherwise it becomes exploitation of others. "Treat others as you would like to be treated" is a good guide. Standing around blocking the pavement, expecting others to wait while you finish your conversation - not on. Taking a little while move your tiny children on trikes out of the way of an impatient cyclist ringing their bell at your 1yo crossly - fine in my view. Broadly, you can't treat other people like they're simply background actors or 'extras' in your life show. Any consideration you want, you have to accord to them.

And at the risk of being a bit 'Lord of the flies', I agree with the playground maxim "if you can't take it, don't dish it out in the first place!" I can't stand little cretins who hit and kick, and then come and cry to Mummy when their victims retaliate. If your kid hits mine and you don't intervene and eventually mine lamps yours back, I'll half-heartedly remind them 'kind hands' and 'we don't hit' but they're still getting an ice-cream (though we may have quiet words at bedtime). If my kid hits unprovoked however or retaliates when a parent has already dealt with the situation, they're getting dragged out of the playground and home in disgrace.

"I was taught to anticipate the needs of others and remove myself from space that other people might want to occupy."
@GoFigure235

yes, that, exactly, you worded it perfectly. This can go too far, when others do not act the same way - see "patriarchy chicken". On the pavement, pedestrians of both directions need to be aware, it isn't on to only expect others to move out of the way constantly.

The very small children who are just learning I don't mind, but the point is that their parents are not teaching; they just let things happen all the time.
Then they grow into adults who are also not aware and don't care.

Additionally there is a differentiation: that there are groups of people who are more vulnerable and thus one needs to be more careful: injured people (for example on crutches), smaller children than oneself, people with disabilities, elder people (someone frail can break a bone when someone on a scooter crashes into them).
Again, it's not only about automatically moving out of the way of everyone, but distinuishing when it would be considerate and when it doesn't matter so much.

These nuances are something that even children need to learn to see.

i have some expertise of trauma based empathetic parenting (known as PACE). What’s commonly misunderstood is that empathetic parenting and boundaries don’t mix. It’s absolutely the opposite actually, boundaries make children feel safe!
My daughter who had a tricky start in life and is very SEN but also polite, well mannered and thinks of others. That’s largely because she needs clear boundaries to feel secure and safe. Tonight we were both really irritated by next doors kids (we are in a caravan) who are banging and stomping around to the point where we can hear them over the TV. Partly due to being ND she really can’t understand why they are allowed to do this!
Dealing with school has been such a slog but one of the main reasons we stay is because on the whole the kids are nice children (from all kinds of backgrounds including MC) and I’m well aware that in many schools this isn’t the case. I find the whole situation very worrying tbh! And it’s often these type of parents who have the most kids!

Besides, people thinking they and their kids are the cool exception to the mainstream only works as long as not too many others do the same

I agree. Parents want the benefit of other people playing by societal rules, ‘but my child is too free spirited and special for that’.

I used to follow a mum blogger who slowly got more and more entrenched in this mindset. She eventually ended up moving her kids to a remote island, home schooling them, practising permissive ‘gentle’ parenting and writes nonsense like ‘I tell them they’re a free spirit who will change the world…’

Maybe it’s coincidence but her eldest (the others are too young for this to be meaningful yet) has serious problems with anxiety, can’t play alongside other kids at the park as ‘he gets overwhelmed’ and I just think no shit, you’ve encouraged him to extract himself from society and now he has no idea how to socialise or even really be amongst other people. His whole life he’s had to parent his parent by ‘making choices’ while simultaneously having no same age peers to grow with. It’s actually very sad and I anticipate he will grow up emotionally unstable and isolated, albeit in colourful knitted jumpers and with an excellent knowledge of coastline wildlife.

Exactly agree with this, which was one of my grouches earlier.

Often there is space for 2 people to pass easily on a pavement, if both move very marginally but so many people don't. No one has right of way but both people can make adjustments. In a playground I'd happily move out the way of a young wobbly rider on a scooter or bike. In a busy but narrow pavement, or the supermarket, they should be aware (from their parents) that that is not a safe space to ride. (For a child's own safety as well as obstacles/risk of collision with others who might not see them, or can't move quickly)

But I notice lots of people (adults and children) seem completely oblivious and unaware of anyone else. A family in front of me in a small but busy shop took absolutely ages debating and deciding between themselves, what dessert to get (while 2 toddlers were putting their hands over edible items on the counter) It was like they had no idea at all that other people were waiting or might not be enthusiastic to eat something a toddler had handled!

I was chatting to a very cool school parent once and their child (about 3) was on a balance bike and rode/scooted off out of sight. I tried to immediately end the conversation and said you better go after them. They assured me that the 3 yo was very proficient on the bike. But I was panicking about cars that might be parking/backing into or out of drives, other vulnerable pavent users (eg elderly or disabled) or even dodgy people approaching a lone tiny child!

A family in front of me in a small but busy shop took absolutely ages debating and deciding between themselves, what dessert to get

Growing up, I would have immediately moved out of the way for you. Whether I'd made my choice or not.

The more mature, assertive me would move to the side so there was space for us both to look. Since we should both have equal rights/space in relation to choosing our favourite cream cakes 😂.

Not sure about this. Rudeness, loudness/rowdiness and violence should not be something other people have to tolerate. It’s not normally acceptable. I can’t give examples without outing myself but believe me this is not acceptable behaviour to most people.

And a lot of those kids in Asian countries live in fear, are sneaky and hide things from parents, lie and cheat regularly on exams, lead toxically controlled lives, and have some of the highest teen suicide rates in the world.
Oh, and having actually lived and worked in China for years, I can confidently say that there are children (esp boys) allowed to run riot as long as they’re getting the ‘right’ marks in school (mostly rote learning and hours of forced coaching classes after school). Bullying is rife. And there’s a lot of aggression and rudeness in everyday life even from adults.
Yes, Japan is all about social cohesion, but they also have problems with mental health that are seen as shameful to speak about. I’m not at all advocating for entitlement and horrible behaviour. But I also think it doesn’t work to hold up all Asian societies as exemplary. As with any societies, there are great and lovely things that do work, and other things that don’t.

That undoubtedly happens but it isn’t particularly common. Do you honestly think affluent areas with highly educated parents are the troubled areas, with the resulting problems feeding into schools?

I wonder a bit if this might be what happens when both parent and child have very mild ASD and just can't grasp the certain of the more subtle societal rules so can't get a toehold in normal socity. I mean things like reading body language, and yes the reality that everybody needs to toe the line in order for society to work.

I actually can see a mild version of this problem in my family. Generations of people struggling to try to fit in and then developing severe anxiety when it doesn't work. It's compounded by food intolerance, immunity problems, and sensory problems which also make spending time with people really challenging.

However, the key thing is that we "look normal" and so nobody understands what's behind the problems. Then we get judged by everybody constantly, while we are working 500% all the time to try and look normal and cope and fit in.

Fortunately these days the medical community have greater comprehension of the fact that such people exist, but no actual fixes for any of the problems yet.

We have a constant battle to overcome medical trauma which sets in very early in childhood as doctors try to resolve the immunity problems that cause difficulties with school attendance and even breathing.

I think if the school system could spot people like this and provide a slightly different kind of schooling with an emphasis on solving all these problems it would set these families on a much better path.

I have talked to an LA educational psychologist and she says that currently it doesn't exist for kids that are above average intelligence and need normal levels of academic challenge at school.

We are home schooling just now.

I don’t think this type of parenting is unique to Cambridge you also see it a lot in the MC enclaves in Hackney. They also tend to be ineffectual dog owners who have very poor control over their pets in public spaces

There's definitely a lot of the dog problem in Cambridge too. Especially post-covid.