DC’s teacher didn’t go to university.

[RabbitWedge]

Two of my DC’s are at the same secondary private school. It’s a small private school, not a well known name, but costs a small fortune nonetheless. An interaction with one of my DC’s English teachers at the end of term has made me feel uncomfortable.

‘Mrs Jones’ has worked at the school for a number of years. She is a very well liked English teacher; the children love her and she’s given high praise on the parents WhatsApp group. At the end of term, I was having a casual chit chat with ‘Mrs Jones’ and the topic of university came up. I asked ‘Mrs Jones’ where she went to university, and she stated that she had not gone and didn’t have a degree. I must have looked very taken aback, as she quickly added that she had an impeccable educational record (apparently all A’s and A*’s), she’d been tutoring for a number of years and working as a TA, at which point the school promoted her to teach English. I didn’t ask for this explanation, but she perhaps felt the need to justify her teaching.

I was under the impression that all teachers had to have degrees at the very least, and whilst I don’t doubt her popularity and delivery of her English lessons, I am concerned. I was aware that teachers in the private system didn’t need to be qualified teachers, but to not even have attended university seems unsuitable.

Would you raise this with the school in my position?

🤣🤣🤣

No you don't! 80% of teaching is behaviour management and knowing how to plan a lesson and 20% is subject knowledge. I've been doing it for 10 years

My DS taught drama for a year at a well known private school. He was 20, and a non graduate. I realise that I'd not the same as maths- but I was a bit shocked!

She is properly qualified though.

And the state sector does employ people straight out of college.

Wife's primary school has hired a teacher with just a level 3 in child development. Beggars can't be choosers.

Plenty of unqualified teachers in the state sector, especially in academies.

As long as you hold your daughter accountable as well. She has to put the work in too

What are you concerned about exactly? It isn’t the quality of her teaching as you’ve already said it’s good. And it isn’t that you’ve been mislead because she’s been open and transparent about it. From what you’ve said, whether or not she has a degree makes no difference to you, your DC or anyone else at the school. What would you be complaining about?

@amigafan2003 "
Plenty of unqualified teachers in the state sector, especially in academies."

I would be very surprised if this was true.

Teachers don’t need a degree in the state sector either. Also, for the millionth time, why do you really care whether or not a teacher had a degree?

Nearly 18,000 non-trainee teachers in England don't hold a teaching qualification (a teaching qual is a requirement in Scotland) with this forecast to rise to 45,000 in the next five years or 10% of the total teaching profession.

To put some perspective in the issue, 44,000 teachers qualify each year but 6,000 of those quit within the first year. in addition to this 41,000 other teachers retire or leave the profession, resulting in a current 3,000 deficit in teachers each year. As I said, earlier, beggars can't be choosers so schools are employing non-qualified teachers.

Yes this happens. I've worked in them

When I was applying to be a teacher 13 years ago ( I’m fully qualified and in the job now) for any of the top ten best universities for teaching qualifications the entry requirement was 2.1 or above. There isn’t tonnes universities who offer PGCE’s either. Also to get a job in a non shortage subject like mine ( History) I was told after I got my job that they chucked any applications out that stated they had a 2.2 or below. If you want to work in a good to outstanding school and are not in a shortage subject I can assure you a 2.2 doesn’t cut it.

Oh it definitely does judging by the quality of students we have coming for placements at my primary school.

My PGCE is in teaching computer science. I have never taught a paid for CS class in my life.

I did a lot of supply mainly teaching Health and Social care. When teaching HSC I was mainly teaching the anatomy and physiology unit.

But I had a career in cardiology before I got a degree. I did a part time BTEC and HNC while working for the NHS.

I also did the internal courses available.

Lots of people who teach HSC are nurses, some continuing to practise others not. Some have nursing degrees some don't because it wasn't a degree subject when they trained.

Seriously? Academies are not bound by QTS in the same way as privates aren't. There have been unqualified teachers working in the state sector, albeit quietly, for years. Shortage subject areas in particular.

You would hope the people teaching your children had a grasp of the subject they teach at a level higher than is taught in school, surely?

My son teaches at a private school. He didn’t go to university however he is very specialised in his field and no one who teaches his specific subject would have been to university.
My close friend is a pilot for a major airline, he hasn’t been to university, it’s all about flying hours and experience.
I have never thought that teachers need a degree, although that is not to say that they need to keep up to date with their subject knowledge.
Teaching is a skill and it cannot be taught at even the most prestigious university.

Are you saying if she did hold a piece of paper you wouldn't be holding her accountable for your children's education?

It's a degree, not professional indemnity insurance.

If she is good at her job then what does a piece of paper matter?

OP, I don't think you are being unreasonable. How can someone guide children towards academic success, if they were not academically successful themselves? Unfortunately the need for strong subject knowledge from teachers is not taken as seriously as it should anymore. Good education is undervalued at a societal level, academic success is not respected enough, and there are many gaps and shortages in skilled professions in the UK, e.g. doctors. This is not great, for a number of reasons.

I grew up in a country from which the UK routinely "imports" doctors, engineers, solicitors and other highly educated skilled professionals. The system there was badly flawed in many ways (pastoral care was appalling, for one), but all our teachers had degrees in their specific subjects. They would've been able to teach their subject off the top of their head if necessary, probably even if you woke them up in the middle of the night by surprise. Because they were so knowledgeable, they didn't need to spend as much time planning as teachers do in the UK either. Now we get to sometimes hear racist politicians moaning about why people educated in my country and others "are stealing local jobs". I wonder why! I'm sorry, but I wouldn't have any time for, let's say, a history teacher who doesn't have strong all-around history knowledge.

However there is nothing you can do because in private schools there is no requirement for teachers to have degrees, and there is a severe shortage of teachers in the UK (and not only in the UK), so the system overall can't afford to have standards. I wouldn't be surprised if in coming years some or even most schools replaced teachers entirely with computer programs and AI, with the occasional unqualified supervisor (a promoted janitor, perhaps) making sure the kids stay at their desks and don't fight.

I have an HND in engineering, FE teaching qualification from long ago, 20 years as an engineer in a nuclear power station on the reactor end being an RPO (Radiation Protection Officer) - No degree, teach physics in secondary (spoiler physics is kind of core to engineering).

So I'm really confused how that bachelors degree is going to help me know more than my students, when I get out the simple equipment we use to demonstrate the very basics of nuclear physics, does my lack of degree mean I know no more than them???😃

On the other hand its not uncommon for someone with a degree in a totally different subject to be teaching something else, or having a very vague degree in education (ie BEd) and no real grasp of the subject beyond the course, what would you prefer.

Mrs Jones is not going to suddenly leave her job and go to university for 3/4 years because “you’ve raised it with the school”. Do you want her fired?

What a load of nonsense. She has been academically successful - the OP states that. She just chose not to go to university after achieving top A-Level grades.

I’m a doctor. Whether or not my GCSE English teacher had an English degree or A-Level English wouldn’t change that. It’s the results that matter and if she didn’t get good results the school wouldn’t keep her in that role.

The fact that the OP didn’t realise the teacher didn’t have a degree and has stated that she’s the favoured teacher among parents just goes to show that it doesn’t make any difference - it sounds as though she’s a better teacher than her peers with a degree.

@RabbitWedge

what about taking your child out of private school and putting them in a state school where you know all the teachers will have degrees? And you’ll save yourself a load of money at the same time! Winner!

Surely you're well aware that times have changed drastically for teaching in the last 13 years. There are enough threads complaining about it.

Already happening

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/uks-first-teacherless-ai-classroom-set-to-open-in-london-13200637