DC’s teacher didn’t go to university.

[RabbitWedge]

Two of my DC’s are at the same secondary private school. It’s a small private school, not a well known name, but costs a small fortune nonetheless. An interaction with one of my DC’s English teachers at the end of term has made me feel uncomfortable.

‘Mrs Jones’ has worked at the school for a number of years. She is a very well liked English teacher; the children love her and she’s given high praise on the parents WhatsApp group. At the end of term, I was having a casual chit chat with ‘Mrs Jones’ and the topic of university came up. I asked ‘Mrs Jones’ where she went to university, and she stated that she had not gone and didn’t have a degree. I must have looked very taken aback, as she quickly added that she had an impeccable educational record (apparently all A’s and A*’s), she’d been tutoring for a number of years and working as a TA, at which point the school promoted her to teach English. I didn’t ask for this explanation, but she perhaps felt the need to justify her teaching.

I was under the impression that all teachers had to have degrees at the very least, and whilst I don’t doubt her popularity and delivery of her English lessons, I am concerned. I was aware that teachers in the private system didn’t need to be qualified teachers, but to not even have attended university seems unsuitable.

Would you raise this with the school in my position?

Teachers in private schools and academies don't need a degree or QTS to teach. As long as they have strong subject knowledge and the capacity to teach, I don't think it's an issue. I say that as a qualified teacher with a degree and QTS.

But it would be at state. You'd be proven that you could stick out something tough for three years and write reports.

It's like there are lots of people who could teach physics on the fly or maths with just gcses, but personally given the choice I'd rather it was someone more qualified than the kids they are teaching. How do you differentiate who scrapped a gcse pass or someone with aptitude for the subject?

He was head of year in his twenties so there's no decades of experience behind him. There's no reason he can't go on to be a deputy or HT. Personally I'd raise an eyebrow but there's plenty of things that aren't held to state standard.

I might be a bit concerned if they were teaching A level without a degree, but As at A level and a few years tutoring etc and I wouldn't be too worried lower down.

In some European countries (Finland?) teaching and education is really valued and teachers have a masters. There is a real focus on research, pedagogy and child development, particularly in the early years. I would much rather this was the case here!

You’re right, no level of education at all should be required to be a teacher 🙄

No, it is not relevant to state either. I am a teacher in a state school. Some schools have heads of years who aren’t even teachers. Having a degree does not prove that you can stick at something tough, because lots of degrees aren’t tough. If a head of year is a teacher, they should be an excellent teacher, but a degree isn’t necessary for this in my opinion.

I have no idea why you have asked the question “how do differentiate who scraped a GCSE pass or someone with an aptitude for the subject?” Well someone who just scraped a GCSE pass will get a grade 5 at GCSE and someone with an aptitude will get a grade 9 at GCSE. But I don’t know why you asked me this question. To teach maths GCSE higher content you clearly need to be able to do all GCSE higher content easily. To teach A-level maths you need an in-depth knowledge.

OP perhaps before you invested your small fortune you should have done your homework? Private schools do not require their teachers to have degrees, or teaching qualifications. Perhaps, the local comp may have suited you better?

I understand that some people can teach fine. I'm sure she does a wonderful job. However, I personally don't agree with employing a person as a teacher who does not have the relevant formal qualifications.
That would be a PGCE with QTS.

I'm sure my views wont be popular for some... however, I don't care.

Teachers go through 4+ years in university, along with teacher training. All to get that PGCE and QTS. All persons who are employed as teachers should have done this. End of story.

@Hio no it really isn't "end of story" - it's your view. One of many over 21 pages. There are plenty of teachers on here who are giving thoughtful and reasoned arguments as to why it may not be the case that HE is the key to great teacher. Teaching is not just a didactic imparting of knowledge - the "sage on the stage" model is rather outdated. It's an incredibly nuanced and varied occupation with totally different skills employed from one hour to the next and depending on age and stage, there are plenty of ways in which an enthusiastic and engaged communicator might outperform a PhD.

What are you on about?

Teacher training to get a PGCE is all about learning how to teach, manage students etc...

Where did a PhD come into it?

You do know that a PGCE is only half the credits of a Masters degree right? About 3-5 years away from what's needed to gain a PhD?

In some ways. You do a teaching qualification to learn how to teach. But the degree means you have knowledge of the subject knowledge that you’re teaching.

Degree: subject knowledge. Teaching qualification: curriculum and teaching techniques.

That said they’re letting people with any degree train to be a maths teacher now so it’s even going out the window in the state system!

I have a BA, MA and PGCE and have been teaching for 25 years. You seem to be stating that there is no possible view other than that "all teachers should have a PGCE". I and most of my colleagues will attest that a PGCE was utterly useless in preparation for teaching - the theory and lectures contributed not one jot to my pedagogical knowledge. I learned it all on the job, from more experienced teachers. It is perfectly possible to be a good teacher without one and it is also possible to be a perfectly good teacher without a relevant degree if you have good subject knowledge and work ethic, combined with the teaching skills, which is what this thread was about. I took exception to your categorical statement that a PGCE was essential.

In my view, a PGCE is essential.

Take exception all you like. I also have a BSc, Masters and a PGCE... And i'd not be happy adding a member of staff to my department without the relevant qualifications. Unless of course, they had 5+ years of outstanding results at A level.

Have all you like but it doesn't make you a good teacher or a good person. I have worked with plenty of teachers with a Masters and PGCE, very few were great teachers, some shouldn't have been allowed to operate a kettle never mind educate a child. In fact some should never have been allowed near children. Character and ability matter much more.

I've seen plenty.

However, you seem to have made a presumption that all I care about it qualifications.
Not so.

It's a recommendation rather than a legal requirement.

This is also why Ph.Ds aren't 'taught' degrees as there is nothing higher than a Ph.D.

As an apprenticeship tutor/adult education teacher, I do not have a teaching degree. What I do have though, is very specialist knowledge, a teaching qualification (not degree level), safeguarding qualifications and the right personality, knowledge and skills to be able to tailor to individual needs and work with my pupils to help them secure the education they deserve to attain. You absolutely don't need a degree to teach any longer.

No you might not need a degree in teaching to teach. But you do need at least a basic bachelors degree in the subject you are teaching. Otherwise what’s the difference between you and your pupil just reading cliff/York notes. The student can do that themselves without a teacher if that’s the level of knowledge on the topic they’re bringing to the classroom.

I am adopting a wait and see approach for now. So far my DC seems happy in her class and is learning. We will see their performance at the next progress evening and mock exams.

I was quite taken aback by how many parents were unbothered on this thread and also the revelation that there are many teachers who don’t hold degrees in the subjects they teach. I know teaching is an unpopular profession at present. To learn there are teachers in the state system (and quite possibly private system too) who may have a degree in maths for example, but who are having to teach maths, science, computing and all manner of subjects they aren’t qualified in surprised me.

I don’t think that’s recent….it was happening when mine were at school….they are early 30s now….teachers taught a variety of subjects

It isn’t my mum was a high school teacher of history in the 70s before I was born and she did RS and for around a term taught German of which she can’t speak a single word! My Dad was primarily history A level (his degree) and also did philosophy and classical civilisation

getting a computer science teacher is rare so it is often other teachers who step it it is an underpaid profession particularly if you have a transferable skill set

the skill is more the ability to teach and transfer over the information than knowing the information itself and that is something you don’t get from a university degree

My Grandma was a primary school teacher for well over 30 years and she also didn’t go to university. It wasn’t a requirement back in the 60s, she went to a teacher training college instead. She was a wonderful and much loved teacher and did a fantastic job.

I don’t want to sound like a twat here but you only need a 2:2 to do most PGCEs so whilst the majority of teachers will have a degree, many probably have a lower second class which as a lecturer seeing the quality of work from 2:2 students… I won’t go on.

Teachers used to be trained for three years in teacher training colleges and were awarded Certificate in Education. In the late 60s students could opt to do a four year BEd degree. I’m not sure when but eventually teachers had to have a degree.

A degree wasn't a requirement in the 70s/early 80s I think so some may still be teaching if they were among the last to go to a College of Education, as I did. The BEd was just starting when I qualified but I went on to do an OU degree as did many others.
The obsession with a degree on this site is odd, in my experience both as a pupil and a teacher I've met people with excellent degrees who couldn't teach for toffee, often they were incapable of understanding why others were not as conversant with their subject as they were themselves!

Much earlier still, many women became teachers, totally untrained, during WWII to fill gaps left when men joined up. They were, during the '60s, awarded qualified by experience status if they were still teaching and I knew one or two who were fantastic teachers.