Just Stop Oil are my heroes!

[incognit]

I have changed my name for this, but there is so much negativity and hate towards JSO, Insulate Britain, and ER on these boards, that I really want to risk putting my head above the parapet and saying "WOOOHOO! I AM RIGHT BEHIND YOU!!"

These are wonderful people sacrificing their own liberty and careers to bring attention to their cause - and it really works! There have been huge benefits, so many companies are aware of them, and taking steps to avoid being in the firing line by upping their investments in environmental mitigations.

And the huge amount of attention that insulation got- it is now high up on so many agendas! Why did it take protesters gluing themselves to the road to do it? It should have happened anyway, but it didn't. People had to make that sacrifice, but themselves in danger, lose jobs, careers, liberty, etc, to get results.

People moan about having their days disrupted, etc by JSO, without caring how much their days are going to be disrupted by the climate crisis running out of control.

I have cancer. I couldn't get to a chemo appointment once because of JSO. I 100% support their actions. I think their cause is so much bigger than one person. They are acting to protect millions.

No doubt people will come here and bitch and moan and I don't care really, at least anyone from JSO who is on MN will see my thread title.

Ah yes the good old "if you're not 100% perfect you're not allowed to care about it" stance. It's as laughable as it is flawed.

By your logic, no one should be concerned about the child exploitation and modern slavery that is well documented in the mining sector unless they live entirely off grid. Afterall, how can you say you care about little kids being maimed in cobalt mines when you own a telly. It's a ridiculous stance that only serves to deflect from the real issue.

Thanks for the copy and paste from Wikipedia, but embodied carbon doesn't impact climate change directly as the carbon isn't released into the atmosphere.

Actually, thanks for the facetious and snotty reply, but it was from the corporate website of one of Europe’s leading manufacturers of scientific and medical equipment. Some of us are capable of using research platforms outside Wikipedia. And as I also stated: petroleum products [are] used in both the manufacturing process itself and the component parts, so of course our many devices contribute to carbon released into the atmosphere.

No need to reply - feel free to pop off and patronise to another poster. I shan’t be reading anything you wish to add.

It’s irrelevant to me what JSO think of themselves and their goodness. Name someone who knows they are doing bad, and does it anyway, not caring about that? It’s vanishingly rare to come across people like that. Everyone has a justification for what they are doing, no matter how awful what they are doing is.

My Moral line is that people are responsible for the foreseeable consequences of their actions. It is entirely foreseeable that people could die or suffer terrible harm, or suffer deep emotional distress, and all the other harms, as a result of JSOs actions. . So therefore, JSO activists claiming for themselves a lack of moral responsibility for any deaths or harm, is entirely bogus. The harms were foreseeable. That they chose to blind themselves to this makes them no less culpable.

By the way of illustration, I knew a man who claimed it wasn’t the result of your actions that affects your responsibility but your intention. I would argue against him quite strongly, as it seems to me a blatantly unsustainable position, for the reasons I outlined above. But he would always hold unflinchingly to this position, which puzzled me.

A little time later I found out why. This guy was serially cheating on his wife with multiple women. And then I understood his line. As he had no intention to hurt his wife through his infidelity, he was not responsible for it. He was only responsible for his intention, not the very foreseeable consequence of his cheating behaviour. .

This primacy of intention over foreseeable consequences is the argument you are making in defense of JSO. And it just doesn’t have credibility.

@slantedroof
I'm not a JSO supporter, in the sense that I don't support their tactics (I do think the climate emergency is terrifying) But, I don't think they're being fairly represented on here and elsewhere.
I don't think anyone has actually said they're OK with people dying on their protests have they?
I can't bear the thought of anything bad happening to children, and think children's lives are absolutely sacred, so I found the first bit of your previous post very difficult to read.
I'm not sure what these conversations are achieving? People are just making eachother feel rubbish. We're going round in circles.
I probably just need to stay off these threads. I was silly to try and be balanced and reasonable! 🤷‍♀️

JSO are painted as monsters, and I don't believe that to be the case at all

They are literally stopping ordinary people from getting to work, from attending hospital appointments, exams and job interviews. The kind of things that aren't always possible to reschedule immediately. The kind of things that can have a significant impact on an ordinary person's life. If you've been on a waiting list for 18 months and you miss your appointment, there's a high chance you'll have a lengthy wait to get seen again. That's potentially life changing if you have a serious condition which requires urgent assessment.

I've said several times that I don't agree with that. With those tactics. I think it's misguided and poorly thought through in many cases. So I'm not sure why you feel the need to point that out to me.
But, they're not monsters, as they're not deriving any pleasure from doing those things. I'm fairly sure of that. I mean it can't be much fun sitting in the middle of the road having abuse hurled at you.
Anyway, probably giving up on this thread now, as it's pointless. I was just trying to inject a bit of balance and nuance.

So, not putting your head about the parapet at all, OP... what with your name change? What a cowardly stance. Don't you feel at all ashamed given that you're lauding people who do what they like and hang the consequences?

Whatever you say can be disregarded.

And I don't understand how someone can sit there knowing that they are intentionally causing misery upon ordinary people who have zero control over these decisions, and yet still say this is a sensible strategy.

Resulting from JSO protest activity, has it:

• Changed energy policy - no.
• Stopped new carbon-derived fuel activity - no.
• Have energy companies done anything - no.
• Has the UK government done anything - no.

Yet they still disrupt ordinary people's lives, despite knowing that they aren't achieving any change. Despite knowing the effect that their actions have on ordinary people. That's my point. If a JSO protester isn't a "monster" then why carry on doing this?

It's far too simplistic to say they're monsters.
I disagree with their tactics. I'm not a fan.
But, it's entirely possible to disagree with someone's actions but still understand their point and to think they're somewhat misunderstood.
But, if it somehow makes you feel better to demonise them, and to berate anyone who doesn't agree 100% with you. I can't stop you.
You do you.
Leaving this thread now. Not having the kind of sensible conversation I was hoping for. I didn't realise it was AIBU. Had I known, I probably wouldn't have posted.
Never mind.
I'll leave you to it.

I don't think I am berating you - I have replied to you. That's how a conversation works, no? I've tried to do so respectfully, so I am not sure why you feel it comes across as berating - unless you are confusing someone arguing their case and not agreeing with you, as being berated?

I don't think I have demonised "them", either. I disagree with JSO's tactics and have posted along those lines, explaining why. I have also expressed incredulity at the cognitive dissonance required to complain about missing a family event, when the protester in question has been responsible for many hundreds of people being similarly inconvenienced.

I genuinely don't understand how people are supposed to have conversations about this? If you can't converse and deal with the fact that not everyone will agree with you, then how does anything ever get resolved?

Throwing stuff at amazing works of art - unforgivable.

Too late to edit - but as it happens, I am more aligned to your view that you think. It's obvious I don't like their tactics. However something has to change - seriously and soon. One positive thing that JSO has achieved is a much wider understanding of the problem. I just wish that they were doing something more meaningful and productive to try and encourage people to get onside and drive forward those changes - although what the answer is, I don't know.

I personally think they have done more damage than good for the causing of reducing climate change. I for one have been turned off of supporting the message due to the idiotic methods of protests it makes me actively despise them. Even greta thunberg has said that they are harming the cause.

OK, so next time they block a road and stop someone from getting to say good bye to a loved one ( not me!) should we just say oh it's OK that I didn't get to say goodbye to my loved one because just stop oil are doing an amazing job disrupting everyone's lives, when most of the clothes and shoes contain oil and more fumes are made because the cars are stuck in traffic jams because these brain washed idiots are acting like muppets!

well, yes..... also people on this thread have literally told me to kill myself because Id rather save hypothetical millions then a hypothetical one.
Im kinda doubting the moral compass on that one!

Also I see this in the same way as the Dr and nurse strikes we have been having lately. It may cause alot of upset and potential harm in the short term but the health care professionals feel forced into it because of the actual harm that will be caused in the future.
If you know a disaster is on the horizon and people are just acting oblivious then maybe its a good thing if somebody stands up and shouts 'fire!'
??

Question for the hive mind - does anyone know of a campaigning group which is trying to change things, but not using JSO-type tactics?

I am interested in the "what can we do" question. From a practical perspective which doesn't involve glue-ing yourself to the road.

Thank you. Well, they've certainly got us talking!
I regret engaging with this thread. I have been upset by the other threads condemning JSO. People wishing them actual harm and misery. Some really vicious vengeful stuff on those threads. I guess my posts here are on the back of those threads. I was trying to inject some balance.
But, I don't like their tactics, and I don't like to see ordinary people negatively affected.
I think the climate emergency is terrifying and will be devastating. I don't know what the answer is.
Anyway, thank you for this post. It was quite healing.
I upset myself by engaging in this thread, and feel quite troubled by it all.

I used to be involved with Greenpeace. Gentle stuff - giving out leaflets etc. Not sure anyone really listened! That's the reason XR (Extinction Rebellion) and JSO started doing more disruptive stuff - as the legal things weren't working. But, I don't think JSO's tactics are working either!
XR were a bit more balanced I think. Usually warning given for their big actions. They weren't quite as disruptive to ordinary people.
I genuinely don't know what the answer is! The climate emergency, and the suffering it could cause, keeps me awake at night 😔

I understand - and thank you for coming back to the thread. I'm a very strong believer that it's important to have a variety of views and voices - otherwise we're all just sitting in a bubble.

However one downside of conversing here is that sometimes a thread can really pull you down - especially if you are on the "underdog" side of the conversation. That hasn't really changed over the years. It used to be very cliquey and everyone knew everyone - so if you disagreed with a popular poster you'd get a pile on. Now it's much bigger and more anonymous, but conversely some posters can be unbelievably rude and nasty because the fear of being censured by the community has gone.

My advice is to try not to let silly posts get to you. I know it's hard, but don't let a few people drive you out of a conversation where there's a chance to share your knowledge and change minds.

Re: Greenpeace. I agree completely with your point about gentle action being easily ignored - and that's the rub. I'd like to think there's somewhere in the middle ground. Harness the massive PR platform that JSO have achieved, and use it to try and do something practical to get people on side. The thought I keep coming back to, is that the only way I can see people wanting to try and change what they do, is by asking them to think about their own children and the world they are leaving for them.

Thank you for this. I'm so glad, and very relieved, that this conversation has taken a more civilised turn, phew!
I'm too sensitive for Mumsnet really, and am often taken back by it; but haven't found another female-friendly forum with such a comprehensive range of topics.
Anyway, back to saving the planet! Yes, maybe getting people to really understand the effects on the next generation using the conversation that JSO and others have created is the way forward?
I've seen online people saying that the more JSO and others annoy them, the more they want to fly, drive, generally contribute to the problem! I find this very depressing, as they're also hurting their own families and friends.
But, I do genuinely believe the majority want to do their best. But we're caught up in a system that makes it hard
I didn't leave the thread for long! 🤭

@LaughingElderberry

“One positive thing that JSO has achieved is a much wider understanding of the problem.”

And yet numerous posters have mentioned that they are none the wiser about what JSO’s campaign is all about, and haven’t investigated their website to find out more (apart from knowing it’s to do with climate change).

They inconvenience people trying to get to work, which will not endear anyone to their cause. At the M25 they stopped an ambulance going through the barrier - lorry drivers forced a pathway for it. They are also utterly naive. We cannot 'just stop oil' - unless we give up a way of life that depends upon it and other fossil fuels - renewables won't cut it, unless we harness tidal power, which looks unlikely. When I say give up the way of life we have I mean: no plastics, no washing machines, dishwashers etc., no reliable source of electricity for the internet/computers and so on. Much of this would impact upon women, who would cease to be able to work outside the home because of the weight of work running a home would suddenly entail (don't imagine men would take up the slack, they wouldn't). Feminism and women's equality and liberation depend very much on the fact that running a home and looking after children has ceased to be so labour intensive.

Yes - still a way to go. And frustrating given the platform they've got. A clearer message would have been much better.

As much as I dislike JSO's tactics; and I really do. I do think the long prison sentences etc could lead to much more aggressive action in future.
To quote the late John F Kennedy -

'Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.'

I think we're in for some serious unrest as the climate crisis worsens. Unless more government action is taken.
I honestly think people will miss JSO and see them as very gentle and peaceful by comparison.

I fear there may be dark days ahead. I wish it were not so.

As explained, I don't know what the answer is. I only wish I did 😔