To not let DS pull out of doing the 11-plus

[Porcuine20]

Feeling massively conflicted here and would welcome some perspective.
DS (just finished year 5) is bright, working at greater depth in everything, particularly keen on maths and science and at the moment wants to be an engineer when he grows up. Our catchment secondary isn’t great, behaviour issues, hardly any extra-curricular, below average GCSE results. We used to be in the catchment for another slightly better school but not any more since thousands of new houses were built. We’re in a county that has grammar schools and does the 11-plus, so suggested having a go to DS which he agreed to and he’s been doing tutoring, which he’s largely enjoyed and he’s made some great progress. His mock exam results have mostly been at a level where he would be in the running for a grammar school place. However, now it’s drawing near and we’re trying keep him working a bit over the summer (the tutors have a summer revision programme, as the exam is soon after school goes back in September), he is having a big wobble, saying he thinks he’ll fail, we’re ruining his life by making him work over the summer, he doesn’t want to do it any more and wants to just go to the local school.
AIBU to say he should still do it (and do these few weeks of revision)? I’m trying not to put too much pressure on, just lots of positive encouragement, we’re still doing fun days out and trips away. But we’ve all invested so much in it (including him with all the hours of tutoring and homework) it seems crazy not to at least try. I feel like if he pulled out and then his friends did it and got in (several are trying) he’d be gutted.. and I also really believe he’d enjoy the school and opportunities if he succeeded. But he is thoroughly miserable at the moment and I kind of feel like I’m steamrollering him into it… I don’t want to be ‘that’ mum but at the same time want the best for him. Anyone been in the same position, what did you do?

The thing is, getting into our local grammar schools is extremely competitive, thousands of kids go for a few hundred places. He shouldn’t need to revise, I completely agree, but the sad fact is that he’s up against a lot of other kids who are revising lots - the bar is set very high. I don’t have any doubts that he’d be able to keep up if he got in. But those who say I’m stressing too much are probably right - I guess I’m feeling the pressure too.

Hello OP. Firstly, I hear you! It's a nightmare.

My DC1 was dragged through it by us as we weren't happy with the non grammar options. Various people said 'if he needs all this revision he won't cope at grammar school' and such like, I had huge qualms about 'ruining his summer etc' A couple of years later he is absolutely thriving at grammar school. He is keeping pace easily, loves having similarly geeky friends, loves the whole experience of learning faster and more efficiently than was possible in a comprehensive primary. He is the 11+ 's biggest advocate and says how absolutely worth it the work was.

DC2 is now having her summer ruined and despite DC1's validation I have even bigger qualms about it, as her marks are currently 20% lower than they need to be and she's going to be devastated if she doesn't pass when DC1 did. I have no doubt at all that she'd thrive there too and wouldn't have problems keeping up but she isn't really willing to do the work to get in.

For a previous poster saying 'the work won't stop after the 11+ it does! No more VR and non VR and stupid alphabet codes and weird symbols to decipher ever. No new maths until about Y8 because the 11+ for some bizzare reason seems to cover all the stuff they ought to learn in Y6 and Y7 so you have to cover it in Y5 😬

Solidarity. It's a messed up, discriminatory, unfair system but it works really well for some 🤷‍♀️

He's old enough to say what he wants and I think you should listen
No Year 5 child should be making decisions about their future education.

Also for a previous poster, yes the standard has got ridiculously high. Not only are they tested on maths they won't have covered at school, but for example my DC is greater depth in maths but currently achieving about 65% on 11+ papers but needs approx 85% to pass the test in our area.

The issue if it’s super selective is it just goes on top 150 scores or however many places. If everyone is tutoring then the pass rate is high. A kid scoring 75% might be grammar school standard and able to keep up but because everyone is prepped to within an inch of life then pass rate is 90%. The last few marks that make a difference between place or not come down to coming and exam technique.
Very different if it’s a pass in catchment gets you a place, they don’t need same level
of preparation.

Yes, your first post just read like anyone who wants to go to grammar school needs to get used to that sort of workload (rather than the difficulty aspect).

You mention revision and big days out - this is a lot for a ten year old. Don't forget to let them be kids - a day of nothing here and there, mucking about, being bored. I'd take the pressure off a bit here op, you don't want to put him off enjoying learning

Obviously the wisest thing for him to do would be to just push through the revision, sit the exam and open as many options as possible. But 9/10 year-olds aren't known for their wisdom and long-term thinking, and unfortunately this is one of those times where you can't actually make the decision for him; you can try to force him to do the revision and attend the exam but at the end of the day he's unlikely to get much out of it if he decides to actively resist. Worst case scenario is that you go through a huge battle until everyone is frustrated and resentful, and then he intentionally tanks the exam.

I'd be wary of the perfect being the enemy of the good, so to speak. Explain why you want him to sit the exam (stress that sitting or passing the exam doesn't mean he has to attend grammar, but it will give him the option to go), and then negotiate a level of revision he's willing to do. I understand it's a competitive area and something low-level like 20 minutes 4x a week may not be enough to pass, but 20 minutes 4x per week that he actually engages in and leaves him willing to put in effort on exam day is better than an hour per day of arguing over it fruitlessly until he just wants to never hear about grammar or the 11+ again.

My post above should say it comes down to timing and exam technique.
Yes yr 6 was a very relaxed year as she’d already covered all the maths.
They were tested 3 weeks into yr 6 on whole of yr 6 syllabus. Unless you have been taught it no chance as it’s so time pressured in exam.

How about a middle ground of - sit the exam and don’t do the extra tutoring over the summer ?

that way if he gets in he can do it based on inherent ability not pushing - having had kids at grammar I think getting in working at the extreme if your ability is a challenge - some kids were tutored all through school and were very miserable. You don’t want to have to push push push for the next 7 yrs.

also , he’s a bright boy. It won’t have failed to occur to him that he can just attend the exam and just spoil his paper / walk out ….

I wouldn’t continue with the extra tutoring over summer, if he is going to be able to keep up with the work at a grammar school he should be able to pass it easily with no extra tutoring (I took the 12 plus and they aren’t difficult tests for clever children). I don’t think children should be pressured at that age, as it’s clearly having a negative effect on him and he is either clever enough for the school or he isn’t. It sounds like he is, so encourage him to go for it, but with no pressure! I went to a local comprehensive in a different county, then got in to a grammar school outside the catchment and in the next county over. To be honest, if he’s clever he’ll do fine in the local school - I quite enjoyed being one of the cleverest in the class at the comprehensive, and even though the grammar had far better results, I don’t feel I would’ve performed any differently in either school when it came down to it.

Yeah, I did say further down that I didn't phrase it very well - that will teach me for trying to multi-task

Give him some time off completely - the summer holidays are supposed to be endless long sunny days of fun - we all know that they don't end up that way and can actually end up quite boring especially when the weather is crap but take a couple of weeks completely off and then ask him if he'd like to start again. I think all kids need a break and some freedom, it sounds like it wouldn't impact his chances too much

I’d lay off a little but I wouldn’t let him not sit just because he wants an easy summer. He doesn’t understand at his age what’s best for him, and this will be. Only one of my 3 sat the grammar test but we aren’t in grammar areas and had an outstanding secondary so I didn’t pay for a tutor. The grammars here are massively competitive and he didn’t get in, but then got 9x9’s in his GCSE and 3 A*’s. Dd didn’t sit but she’s likely to get a place for sixth form but isn’t likely to take it as she doesn’t want to go to a single sex school for sixth form

Let him have the summer off he's 11 if he's grammar material he will do well wherever he ends up.

@Commonsense22, was it really necessary to quote the whole of the OP's post?

Given yours was the first reply I don't think there would be any confusion about whom your reply was directed to...

I'm with the boy. I was that kid. Parents (mostly mum) made me work through holidays, had to have tutors, mock exams invigilated by my dad, that he marked very severely. I sat the exam and it was actually a piece of piss I now see. My confidence was heavily dented. I got into the posh grammar. I was actually extremely precocious, and I must have been not much older that 7 or 8 when I realised (a) my parents didn't know everything (b) they were snobs (c) they thought I was a bit stupid. This last was reinforced by the infectious (!) anxiety they showed over the 11+. I didn't do well at secondary due to deliberate lack of effort; they said I was 'ungrateful'. I didn't see them much fro leaving school until I was 40. I got a good degree when I was 30 and didn't tell them. That felt really good.

If thousands of kids for a few hundred places, then most will fail anyway.

Those children are educated somewhere, they are probably bright enough for grammar but because places are very limited, they will also have to go to the local comprehensive. I'd be finding out where those children go and applying there.

One of mine failed to get into grammar school and so did most of her cohort, no idea why, several had been tutored but it just didn't work for them. The one that got in did well academically, but there's been a concern about hot housing and MH provision at the school.

I don't think it's worth pushing this in the first or second week of the holiday, and overall, you may have to dial down the 'he needs to go to grammar' thinking anyway- likelihood he won't get in, not because he's not bright enough or doesn't have the skills, there's just too little chance and it's all a bit random.

I’d give him several weeks off and suggest he revisits towards the end of August. See how he feels nearer the time - but for now take your foot off the pedal.

YABU. Let him be a kid. My DS went to a bang average secondary and has just left school planning on doing a medical degree. If they want it, they'll put the effort in themselves.

I did the 11 plus 50 years ago and I dont remember revising for it. We had a practice paper. We werent told in advance which day it would take place. We just turned up for school as normal and were told, today you are doing the 11 plus.
I thought it was just an IQ test.

This - my DS has ASD and struggled through parts of school. Was really behind in his first year of GCSEs due to multiple bouts of covid, anxiety and feeling overwhelmed. Once he decided he really wanted to study medicine, even if that means a detour vis a MSc/MSc in Bio Medical Sciences to compensate for mediocre GCSE grades, he completely stepped up. Is predicted all 7-9s (appreciate that may not be what he gets, though!)

I think many children - maybe boys in particular as my DH was the same - only really find their focus once they know what they want to do. At 10yo it’s impossible to know. If he’s bright, he’ll find his way even in an average comprehensive school.

Just give him love, space and encourage him have a stab at the exam without pressure. Maybe a treat for doing it, rather than the focus on whether he passes.

Sadly there is an industry behind this and a load of tiger parents. Many kids are tutored within an inch of their lives, multiple times a week. Good schools learn to discern the tutored/spoon fed pupils. The ones that don’t probably aren’t happy places. It’s brutal.

YANBU.

Remind him that he's doing really well and that regardless of how he does, it will be excellent practice for all future exams.

perhaps unsurprisingly things have changed in 50 years.