Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Admitting to killing his sister and getting away with it

444 replies

SouthernFashionista · 23/07/2024 22:29

I could weep after reading this. But mostly I’m just angry. How in gods name has this happened? I know some don’t like DM links but the facts are that a man punched his sister in the head, killing her, and admitted doing so yet will face no charges. Sickening.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13664507/Girl-11-died-punched-heat-moment-half-brother-not-face-charges.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
diktat · 24/07/2024 12:09

Inlaw · 24/07/2024 11:54

This is true. Apologies I meant PP not OP.

The agenda that everyone is treated equally. Outrageous.

That's not their agenda, their agenda is to create division and hate.

A 29 year old white man who raped a 12yo girl has just qualified for the 2024 Olympics.

Why don't you say he's being given leniency because of his religion?

LordPercyPercy · 24/07/2024 12:24

When a girl is born she opens a door to Heaven for her father.
When she marries she completes half her husbands religion.
When she becomes a mother heaven lies at her feet.

All of this describes girls and women as simply props for men's spiritual journey though, or as only having value through having children.

Christianity has similar issues, but Christianity at least had a reformation.

EasternStandard · 24/07/2024 12:26

LordPercyPercy · 24/07/2024 12:24

When a girl is born she opens a door to Heaven for her father.
When she marries she completes half her husbands religion.
When she becomes a mother heaven lies at her feet.

All of this describes girls and women as simply props for men's spiritual journey though, or as only having value through having children.

Christianity has similar issues, but Christianity at least had a reformation.

Well said

Livinghappy · 24/07/2024 12:29

Can we agree on that and shift the focus back to the CPS which seems to be the one at fault here for not prosecuting the perp?

Yes, however the anger people feel is because the family have closed ranks to protect the man. Had they spoken up (including the girlfriend) then the CPS wouldn't have to rely on medical evidence which could be challenged in court.

Most cultures have devalued women in the past and treated women as 2nd class citizens, this also occured in British families but much less so now.

I think it's arguing in bad faith to ignore that some cultures still treat women unfairly and in some cases brutally and the community accepts it. "Honor" killers happen because of male dominance and their view of women. For a problem to be fixed it first has to be acknowledged. I certainly want to help ALL women irrespective of race or religion live safely but we must be able to freely discuss it without being defensive or labelling it as phobia/racism.

OneTC · 24/07/2024 12:31

I feel like people forget some details of the reformation when they offer it up in arguments such as this

mirax · 24/07/2024 12:34

diktat · 24/07/2024 12:09

That's not their agenda, their agenda is to create division and hate.

A 29 year old white man who raped a 12yo girl has just qualified for the 2024 Olympics.

Why don't you say he's being given leniency because of his religion?

Edited

There is universal disgust and revulsion at his behaviour and MN threads long before this atrocity. His religion is not a matter of discussion because he doesnt define himself by it. If he were to, like many muslims who cling very strongly to muslim identity and causes, then he would undoubtedly be judged by it. Identity politics is a very sharp double-edged sword. You cannot be special and not special selectively.

Hairyesterdaygonetoday · 24/07/2024 12:42

BrigadierEtienneGerard · 24/07/2024 10:02

I am sorry, but I am not going to form an opinion on this based on a single press report and that in the Daily Mail to boot.

There is, I suspect, considerably more to this than has been printed.

Yes of course. I expect she deserved it, and he didn’t touch her anyway, and she unluckily happened to drop dead by chance, and he wasn’t even in the house when it happened.

Or is there some other way you can twist it so he is not a killer?

inamarina · 24/07/2024 12:48

diktat · 24/07/2024 10:45

Do you really think white culture is not all problematic and is good for white women?

Edited

What exactly is “white culture”?

timenowplease · 24/07/2024 12:53

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

And this is the exact problem. A child was murdered but you'd prefer to goad and taunt rather than taking a hard look at yourself and you own culture.

I won't hold my breath for marches in the street for justice for that child.

prh47bridge · 24/07/2024 13:01

Livinghappy · 24/07/2024 12:29

Can we agree on that and shift the focus back to the CPS which seems to be the one at fault here for not prosecuting the perp?

Yes, however the anger people feel is because the family have closed ranks to protect the man. Had they spoken up (including the girlfriend) then the CPS wouldn't have to rely on medical evidence which could be challenged in court.

Most cultures have devalued women in the past and treated women as 2nd class citizens, this also occured in British families but much less so now.

I think it's arguing in bad faith to ignore that some cultures still treat women unfairly and in some cases brutally and the community accepts it. "Honor" killers happen because of male dominance and their view of women. For a problem to be fixed it first has to be acknowledged. I certainly want to help ALL women irrespective of race or religion live safely but we must be able to freely discuss it without being defensive or labelling it as phobia/racism.

Even if the family had spoken up, the CPS would need medical evidence to show that the punch caused the girl's death. If the medical evidence suggests they were unrelated, any attempt to sue him for murder or manslaughter should fail.

Naunet · 24/07/2024 13:02

diktat · 24/07/2024 12:09

That's not their agenda, their agenda is to create division and hate.

A 29 year old white man who raped a 12yo girl has just qualified for the 2024 Olympics.

Why don't you say he's being given leniency because of his religion?

Edited

Are you fucking kidding? There was a lot of outrage about that. You seem to have spent most of this thread derailing, ignoring the poor muslim girl who was killed and trying to get people to look in other directions. Can we focus on the victim of THIS case?

RumNotRun · 24/07/2024 13:03

Personally I would say it is cultural expectations and behaviours that lead to protecting males like this/excusing their behaviour, rather than religious ones.

The actual religion of Islam is not the misogynistic violent religion that it is often depicted to be. The misogyny often comes from the culture of the area which, when you look into it, will often be in place regardless of religion. FGM, to take one horrific example, is practised by Christians, Jews, and Muslims in certain countries which would indicate a cultural rather than religious bias.

To sweepingly declare that crimes like this are due to Islam is a simplistic and problematic approach. It is othering an entire religion when the best way to overcome negative attitudes towards women is surely for us all to work together to explore the real reasons behind these attitudes and to attempt to educate and improve negativity.

Sorry, that's a bit waffley!

Admitting to killing his sister and getting away with it
BlackShuck3 · 24/07/2024 13:15

mirax · 24/07/2024 06:48

There is evidence of the mother and grandmother closing ranks and covering up the crime. There may be male figures involved but there are plenty of toxic females as well.
As for the lack of concern for that child's life, it is Rochdale, it all seems a part of a pattern in the UK.

Yes the women of the family are also guilty.
Why do the women defer to the men? Why do they follow the lead set by the men?
Probably because they have seen what happens to women who don't obey the men of the family, they are executed there and then on the spot and no one does anything about it.
I'm not condoning the behaviour of the women but at the same time it is very difficult for them to stand up to the men because everything is controlled by the men. In any hierarchical system most people's best option is to align themselves with and defer to those who hold the power.

BlackShuck3 · 24/07/2024 13:17

Furthermore the reason that the men do it is they know they can get away with it. They know that the other women in the family are scared of them and won't go against them and they know that the men of the family enjoy having the power to do whatever they like to the women.
The men have got it all sewn up.

diktat · 24/07/2024 13:39

mirax · 24/07/2024 12:34

There is universal disgust and revulsion at his behaviour and MN threads long before this atrocity. His religion is not a matter of discussion because he doesnt define himself by it. If he were to, like many muslims who cling very strongly to muslim identity and causes, then he would undoubtedly be judged by it. Identity politics is a very sharp double-edged sword. You cannot be special and not special selectively.

How do you know this man clings to muslim identity and causes?

You are just making stuff up to suit your narrative.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 24/07/2024 13:43

RumNotRun · 24/07/2024 13:03

Personally I would say it is cultural expectations and behaviours that lead to protecting males like this/excusing their behaviour, rather than religious ones.

The actual religion of Islam is not the misogynistic violent religion that it is often depicted to be. The misogyny often comes from the culture of the area which, when you look into it, will often be in place regardless of religion. FGM, to take one horrific example, is practised by Christians, Jews, and Muslims in certain countries which would indicate a cultural rather than religious bias.

To sweepingly declare that crimes like this are due to Islam is a simplistic and problematic approach. It is othering an entire religion when the best way to overcome negative attitudes towards women is surely for us all to work together to explore the real reasons behind these attitudes and to attempt to educate and improve negativity.

Sorry, that's a bit waffley!

Very well put, RumNotRun
Though personally I subscribe to no organised religion, I do get very tired of seeing blame heaped upon them when as you rightly said the issue lies with culture - or rather some sub-sets of it

Just as the actions of the Climbies were in no way Christian, Falaq Babar's family's are about as far from true Islam as it's possible to get, and offenders' attempts to co-opt the religion in the hope it'll avoid criticism makes no difference to that

diktat · 24/07/2024 13:46

Naunet · 24/07/2024 13:02

Are you fucking kidding? There was a lot of outrage about that. You seem to have spent most of this thread derailing, ignoring the poor muslim girl who was killed and trying to get people to look in other directions. Can we focus on the victim of THIS case?

Edited

The point is that the rapist's religion wasn't called into question. Yet you have people like @mirax saying this guy must cling to muslim identity and causes.

It's not surprising that you're ignoring this to suit your own agenda.

OP's thread was never about this man being Muslim, it's you and your ilk who have derailed the thread. The hypocrisy from you and others is astounding.

Naunet · 24/07/2024 14:10

diktat · 24/07/2024 13:46

The point is that the rapist's religion wasn't called into question. Yet you have people like @mirax saying this guy must cling to muslim identity and causes.

It's not surprising that you're ignoring this to suit your own agenda.

OP's thread was never about this man being Muslim, it's you and your ilk who have derailed the thread. The hypocrisy from you and others is astounding.

My ‘agenda’ is to focus on the poor girl who lost her life at the hands of a man, whatever agenda you’re projecting onto me, is made up in your own mind. That’s your issue, not mine.

The focus of this thread is the victim, not other cases.

diktat · 24/07/2024 14:19

Naunet · 24/07/2024 14:10

My ‘agenda’ is to focus on the poor girl who lost her life at the hands of a man, whatever agenda you’re projecting onto me, is made up in your own mind. That’s your issue, not mine.

The focus of this thread is the victim, not other cases.

If that was your focus you would have asked those derailing it by talking about grooming gangs to stop.

Inlaw · 24/07/2024 14:31

diktat · 24/07/2024 12:09

That's not their agenda, their agenda is to create division and hate.

A 29 year old white man who raped a 12yo girl has just qualified for the 2024 Olympics.

Why don't you say he's being given leniency because of his religion?

Edited

Huh what’s that got to do with this?

He WAS charged and prosecuted (way too leniently IMO but that’s a systemic problem not a Dutch national problem).

And the decision for him to qualify for olympics is not a U.K. decision!

MrsTerryPratchett · 24/07/2024 14:35

mandarindreams · 24/07/2024 02:45

Horrifying but not surprising. Sibling on sibling domestic abuse is often trivialised and this is the natural end point. I know a lot of people (female and male) who grew up with violent siblings and who were told they'd just have to live with it because nothing could be done to remove their abuser.

Thanks @mandarindreams

I experienced this and it was completely minimised. Still is, actually.

diktat · 24/07/2024 14:37

Inlaw · 24/07/2024 14:31

Huh what’s that got to do with this?

He WAS charged and prosecuted (way too leniently IMO but that’s a systemic problem not a Dutch national problem).

And the decision for him to qualify for olympics is not a U.K. decision!

Yes, and the decision not to charge this man with Falaq's death is a systemic one, not due to his religion.

The charge rate by ethnicity is higher for Asians so this argument doesn't even make any sense.

Table: Charge Rates by suspect’s ethnicity

A1 – Indian
71.8
A2 – Pakistani
73.5
W1 – White British
69.6

https://www.cps.gov.uk/publication/cps-charging-decisions-examining-demographic-disparities-outcomes-our-decision-making

Getonwitit · 24/07/2024 14:59

ChishiyaBat · 24/07/2024 10:31

Imagine being an 11 year old girl who takes her young siblings into the bathroom to hide, then getting the door rammed in by a grown man, imagine the fear those 3 children experienced at that moment, then those younger children witnessing their sister being punched and collapsing. I can't imagine how scared those poor children must have been. It's just heartbreaking that no one was protecting them in their own house. He admitted to punching and killing her. That poor little girl then suffered for 3 weeks before she died, it's horrific.

Don't forget to add that the parents of the killer protected him. For me they are as evil as their murdering son. Wonder what their god thinks of them?

prh47bridge · 24/07/2024 15:07

Getonwitit · 24/07/2024 14:59

Don't forget to add that the parents of the killer protected him. For me they are as evil as their murdering son. Wonder what their god thinks of them?

To repeat, we don't know that he is a killer. We do know that the authorities regard what happened as manslaughter at worst, not murder. If the medical evidence does not show that the punch caused his sister's death, he is not a killer.

DoreenonTill8 · 24/07/2024 15:10

prh47bridge · 24/07/2024 15:07

To repeat, we don't know that he is a killer. We do know that the authorities regard what happened as manslaughter at worst, not murder. If the medical evidence does not show that the punch caused his sister's death, he is not a killer.

Oh well that's alright then...

Swipe left for the next trending thread