Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

I genuinely want pro-VAT people to answer these two questions

1000 replies

Seenandheard · 23/07/2024 17:46

(1) Do you realise that a private school child saves the tax payer/government thousands of pounds per year by not taking up a space in state school? Not to mention the space in the classroom/competition for places? (Do you care about this point or gloss over it in your minds?!)

(2) Do ypu realise that taxing education is illegal in the EU?

Yes or no to both points, please.

I do not want reams of uninformed angry opinions. I don't want this to turn into a multi page thread/bun fight. I just want to understand whether people realise these two points, really, truly understand them. Because it seems to me that there is a mentality of "they're getting a tax break" (WRONG) or "they're taking something away from my child" (WRONG) or "they can afford it so they can spread their wealth a bit" (I'm not going into the fact that my family spend more on taxes than Nordic countries, who have a far, far higher standard of living. We give so much, get almost nothing in return- but apparently we need to give more. More. More.)

I think my deep rooted anger here is to do with people's attitudes and uninformed opinions more than the policy itself. I need to know if people are aware of the facts.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
EasternStandard · 25/07/2024 06:37

hastingsmax · 23/07/2024 17:56

ITS NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE SYSTEM.

I'm so tired of hearing this. My sharp elbows are mine!

..people going on like this in pp

But also ha at this... Don’t mention your elbows too much someone will call for a tax on it. And yes this need from people to take what it is you do rather than just do it for themselves seems strange

Neurodiversitydoctor · 25/07/2024 06:49

perfectstorm · 23/07/2024 18:25

I worry that a lot of kids in the smaller private schools are there because they have SEN and were being broken by the sheer size of state mainstream. Parents working 2 jobs to pay primary fees, hoping their kids will get EHCPs (which takes around a year now even if the LA play ball, and then usually an appeal taking another year) before they reach secondary.

VAT won't affect EHCP funded kids. But I think a child who has proven SEN above a DLA medium rate threshold should also be exempt, because those kids can't usually attend state mainstream for sensory reasons, or staff ratios. It's not a choice for those parents. Autistic kids are 46 times more likely to suffer from school distress, and small independents and home education are swallowing up a lot of the slack.

Not all the kids in private schools are little Araminta on her pony.

Or maybe the state sector will have to step up. Latest estimates are that 10% of the population are neurodiverse, the vast majority of these should be managed in the mainstream.

There are additional needs schools funded and run by local authorities.

Standupcitizen · 25/07/2024 06:52

thefireplace · 25/07/2024 06:36

P/Schools will be able to claim back about 5% of the 20%, they can then cut their budgets/increase class sizes slightly.

R4 did a piece on this, 10% seemed more realistic and thats without any funding rising.

All of the above has happened in the state sector for many years now.

Assuming the amount raised is correct, this would be around 8 billion over the course of a 5 year parliament.

For context, £4bn is the amount needed to fix the dentist/nhs contract and provide us all with reasonably priced dentistry.

There are just too many things wrong with the country not to have VAT on what is essentially a luxury item, if you don't agree, where should this 8bn come from?

Poor people, probably.

EasternStandard · 25/07/2024 06:57

Standupcitizen · 25/07/2024 06:52

Poor people, probably.

There’s plenty of state users who are not poor, and from what I can tell from these threads any extra tax is for someone else always

Let’s see how much it raises and the damage to the sector which you’d expect for anywhere with a 20% hike.

I can’t see much on these threads other than glee at people who are the margins of affording fees getting it

It’ll just shift those people out and widen the gap between the two sectors

Standupcitizen · 25/07/2024 07:07

EasternStandard · 25/07/2024 06:57

There’s plenty of state users who are not poor, and from what I can tell from these threads any extra tax is for someone else always

Let’s see how much it raises and the damage to the sector which you’d expect for anywhere with a 20% hike.

I can’t see much on these threads other than glee at people who are the margins of affording fees getting it

It’ll just shift those people out and widen the gap between the two sectors

Yes but the government will have an extra £8 billion from people who, according to the vast majority of posters on this thread, will absorb the cost and go on living their "lovely, lovely lives" at their "lovely, lovely schools".

Gameofmoans81 · 25/07/2024 07:23

If private schools are a business who is profiting from it? Do they have an owner? Genuine question, I don’t know much about it! I know the teachers at our local one don’t earn any more than they would at a state school so it’s not them

MaggieFS · 25/07/2024 07:35

MaggieFS · 23/07/2024 18:22

  1. yes
  2. I'm not sure of the relevance?

I went to private school and I'm certainly not a subscriber to many of the ill-informed arguments you reference in your OP.

I think there is a lack of knowledge on both sides.

As a believer in "public goods", in an economic sense, and at a time when the public finances are stretched, I genuinely can't see any reason why private school fees should not be subject to VAT.

Quoting myself from very early on in the thread, to say (with apologies if missed) I still haven't seen a reasonable case made for why private school fees should not be subject to VAT?

With any change there will inevitably be a transition phase but from a principled point of view, in the long run, it seems like the right thing to do.

VickyPollard25 · 25/07/2024 07:39

Sunshineandpool · 25/07/2024 00:22

Personally I'm not hostile against users of private education, although I don't agree with it.

I do feel hostile against this winging about how difficult it is for rich people because as is always trotted out - we couldn't even afford a holiday this year!

And honestly life is also about luck. And if you don't realise that...well, it says it all.

I must have missed the whining about holidays. I haven’t heard any of that.

I think not just luck. It’s preparation meets opportunity.

thefireplace · 25/07/2024 07:42

Standupcitizen · 25/07/2024 06:52

Poor people, probably.

Yep always ok to keep increasing council tax on the lower paid, get them to pay (or go without) basic healthcare but the moment anyone suggests changes on the amounts the wealthier pay, all we get is a great gnashing of teeth and a series of ever more bizarre reasons why they shouldn't lose anymore of their money.

After 14 years of the Tories, this country cannot borrow much more & the average earner cannot afford higher taxes, so whilst we'd all want everything to stay the same, it cannot.

Labour are going to have to alter where taxes come from & reduce what we expect from the state.

absquatulize · 25/07/2024 07:59

Gameofmoans81 · 25/07/2024 07:23

If private schools are a business who is profiting from it? Do they have an owner? Genuine question, I don’t know much about it! I know the teachers at our local one don’t earn any more than they would at a state school so it’s not them

About half of private schools are privately owned, some by venture capitalists, if they are not in it for making a profit...

haveatye · 25/07/2024 08:03

1 - saving money - maybe in the direct sense of those kids not having a paid state place. But overall there's a societal cost of private schooling making a glass ceiling that prevents us being a meritocracy

2 - not sure why EU law is relevant

Private schools shouldn't be charities because they're aimed at preserving privilege which isn't something that benefits the general public

VickyPollard25 · 25/07/2024 08:03

TheOriginalEmu · 24/07/2024 21:22

The best option for society is to scrap private schools and give everyone the same opportunities.

Sound we all get paid the amounts and live I exactly the same houses too? I think someone’s tried that before.

CurlewKate · 25/07/2024 08:14

@EasternStandard "I can’t see much on these threads other than glee at people who are the margins of affording fees getting it"

Tell you what. You ignore the posts expressing glee and I'll ignore the ones going on about jealousy. When we've both ignored those 6 or so posts we can carry on having a sensible discussion.

HowardTJMoon · 25/07/2024 08:17

Here's what I don't understand - if your DCs private school becomes unaffordable to you after VAT, why not just find a cheaper one? You know, like going from Tesco Finest to the normal Tesco product line when prices go up?

If you can't find one in your price range then why not start one? You could use some of the hard work and gumption that, according to this thread at least, private school customers have in abundance.

anothervoice · 25/07/2024 08:55

“Here's what I don't understand - if your DCs private school becomes unaffordable to you after VAT, why not just find a cheaper one? “

Exactly.

Or just keep on at the school but don’t go on all the trips etc, etc, etc.

Within a few miles radius of my house there are schools charging £10k per term and others charging £6k.

The fee increase will not be 20% - it will be more like 5-10%, if even that. Easily offset elsewhere in most cases. Fees go up every year anyway.

Anele22 · 25/07/2024 08:57

Creaming off the more able (grammar schools) and the wealthy (private schools) disadvantages the others in the classroom and creates a two-tier, unjust system. You might be happy with that as your kids are a-okay! I'm not. Tax private schools out of existence and fund state education for all.

lavenderlou · 25/07/2024 09:00

The fee-paying parents I know aren't wealthy; they're on modest incomes

This lack of awareness is what makes people unsympathetic. Nobody on a "modest" income has several thousand pounds available each term to pay on private school fees. If you have that kind of money, you are wealthy. Not recognising what wealthy looks like makes you seem completely out of touch.

HowardTJMoon · 25/07/2024 09:12

Exactly. The cost for a typical private school per child per year is more than the average wage - note not minimum wage, but the average £35K salary. That's a big ol' chunk of change to have sitting around spare.

perfectstorm · 25/07/2024 09:13

Neurodiversitydoctor · 25/07/2024 06:49

Or maybe the state sector will have to step up. Latest estimates are that 10% of the population are neurodiverse, the vast majority of these should be managed in the mainstream.

There are additional needs schools funded and run by local authorities.

They can't be managed in the mainstream in many cases, . One of my children has hyperacusis and the other Auditory Processing Disorder. Both have sensory processing issues at a level that would make it a separate diagnosis, were that one in this country. How on earth could they attend a school with more than a thousand kids? My daughter couldn't cope even in primary with classes of 30, and my son should never have been in classes of more than 6. He now has a formal diagnosis of PTSD due to school attendance - in primary! That's not even unusual amongst autistic kids. When we were last at CAMHS a new clinician saw the PTSD dx and immediately said "from school?" and when we said, "yeah" just nodded and carried on. That's the go-to assumption with an autistic child. Not an accident, or witnessing or being victim of a crime. Not abuse of some sort. School. And you say we should send them in, and the schools will magically "step up"? How? Shrink?

The LA voluntarily removed my second child from state mainstream and put her into a private school, and they do that reasonably often across the board for SEN, because a state SEN specialist school costs them around £26,000 at primary, and an independent is likely to cost less. In point of fact, providing for my younger child even in state primary would also have cost the state more - much more. They drew up a provision map showing this. She needed movement breaks every hour for a start, so would have had to have a 1:1 TA in state. In private, they move classroom every hour. Job done.

And there are no specialist schools in our local area for bright autistic kids who can't cope with mainstream. None. The commissioning brief for the schools is 5th to 50th centile ability for the school designed for the most able cohort - and plenty of autistic kids are fairly bright. Do they need schools for this cohort? Well, duh. Are they building any? No. No, they are not.

My son has been out of school and on an EOTAS package for 6 years now, and there are hundreds in our county alone. Many others are home educated. All the special schools are full, and most over capacity - talk to parents whose kids are meant to be in classes of 8 who are instead in classes of 12, and not coping, but who have kids added all the time as those parents win Tribunals. The system was where the NHS is now, when the Tories got into power. To say it's past breakdown is to understate. Every single LA is tens of millions overspent on SEN - to the point they are all having that money kept off the books by government agreement, because if the SEN overspend were factored in every single LA would be insolvent - and yet the deficit, year on year, keeps mounting. LAs don't abuse families - which they are all doing! - for a laugh. They do it because they are so badly overspent they have to. So to get what your child needs you either appeal, or pay, or get exceptionally lucky.

So, so many disabled kids are out of school altogether and have nowhere, many for years on end. SEN Reform has a huge Facebook group, and threads on there by parents comparing notes on how many years their child's been without anything at all are hair-raising.

Is the private sector the right answer? Absolutely not. Is it the only answer, for all too many kids right now? Yes.

And again: this policy doesn't affect me in the least, because one of mine is at home on EOTAS, and the other has school fees paid by the EHCP. I just happen to know, and care about, a lot of desperate parents with SEN kids, who aren't making normal levels of sacrifice at all (think: remortgaging, huge credit card debt, trying to find a way to earn more through hook or by crook) because their autistic kids were suicidal in state primary, and now aren't. And not because private schools are magic, either. Because they are smaller-scale!

What we really need are state "mainstream plus" schools for autistic kids. Same curriculum, but much small classes, in a quiet site. Training by OT and SLT so provision is threaded through with that understanding. Autism is a different way of seeing the world so teachers who adopt a neurodiversity-affirming approach, and recognise heightened anxiety, are needed. Plain walls, and in fact a sensory audit to ensure a peaceful, accessible environment. And it should be possible to place kids there early, before the damage is done. So many kids need it, and it would cost less than either specialist or private. Everyone in the sector knows this is what is needed, too, but nothing is done because the wider public do not give a shit about disabled kids other than feeling sentimental on Children in Need night.

Right now, we have so many kids destroyed by the state system who end up in private specialist schools run by chains (Cambian, Aspris, Aurora, Spaghetti Bridge, Options Autism, I could go on), offering frankly quite weak education for kids who by then are often very challenging due to earlier unmet need and catastrophic mental health damage. And to suggest that those kids shouldn't be placed in small private schools before that stage is reached is insane, even just in terms of cost to the state. We badly need an alternative pathway for autistic kids for whom state mainstream will always, always be destructive - there are a large number of them! Schools designed to challenge and stimulate the most robustly neurotypical will only ever harm many neurodivergents. Pretending that isn't the case is actively colluding in that harm. We need different and we need better, and until we have it, small private schools (which don't, as a rule, offer more understanding of autism, so aren't "better" but are smaller) are plugging a desperate gap.

Can you make it to the end?

Understand autism, the person and what to do. Visit http://bit.ly/2UuogeG

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPknwW8mPAM

anothervoice · 25/07/2024 09:13

The problem is, the money raised here (which is a drop in the ocean anyway) will not be used to ‘fund state education.’

It will be used to train more (predominantly maths) teachers.

Why do the govt think there is a persistent teacher shortage then?

It’s because teachers - like many of my friends - are leaving the profession in droves due to stress and being expected to act as teachers / social workers rolled into one. They are not paid enough to take the daily verbal and, in some cases, physical threats and abuse.

Schools will only get better when parents start working with teachers, rather than moaning and blaming schools for their own shortcomings as parents. Too many parents have a chip on their shoulder about their own education and they are passing this on to their children - a kind of ‘them and us’ attitude - ‘Why should I have to read this stupid book with my child each night - THEY should be teaching them reading” “Why should I have to help on the school trip.” Why should I have to get shoes from the uniform list - I’ll just send them in what I think they should wear ….” All this kind of thing. You see it on MN all the time.

It’s not teacher training opportunities that need funding. It’s teacher retention.

Shakeoffyourchains · 25/07/2024 09:14

Dibblydoodahdah · 24/07/2024 20:36

So you think that the impact on children with SEN is bullshit? Munira Wilson doesn’t. She spoke about it in the HOC today.

No, I think equating "not opposed to this policy" with "wanting to see SEN kids pubished" is a bullshit attempt at trying to guilt trip people into supporting your cause.

But thanks ever so much for demonstrating perfectly the way those against this policy twist things to suit their narrative.

mm81736 · 25/07/2024 09:21

Can I ask whether the private sector underwrite the cost to the state of training teachers eg underwriting student loans and ITT bursaries? Or do they just benefit from poaching qualified teachers?

ObelixtheGaul · 25/07/2024 09:25

Bushmillsbabe · 24/07/2024 17:18

I didn't say that no state school parents are interested in their child's education, a good proportion are. I went to state school, my children go to state school, all my children's friends go to state school and all are interested in their child education.

My question was why do private school parents need to be the ones to improve state schools. The comments on here are very much that it takes either money from private school parents or 'sharp elbows' from private school parents moving into state schools, for state schools to improve, which i think is really insulting.

Why can't state school parents and staff be the ones to improve state schools, if we care about it we need to be the ones improving it, rather than relying on others to do it for us. That's the bit I think is sad, that state school parents and staff aren't thought capable of doing it, we need 'rescuing'. We absolutely flippin don't!

My children go to a fabulous, very economically diverse state school, with a larger than average SEN provision, higher than average FSM and pupil premium. An amazing leadership team has pulled the school from requires improvement to outstanding, with no extra money from the government, with the same cohort of pupils and families, with the support of some very engaged parents and a proactive visionary approach.

I see what you're saying, however I do think it's harder for the deprived area schools to do it for themselves. Money has more push power. It's easier to be heard when you are a lawyer than it is when you are a bin man.
Schools in deprived areas can be fantastic, but aren't always recognised as such because they don't do well in league tables. A 'good' Ofsted report isn't enough when schools continually underperform in league tables because those statistics don't allow for the number of children being taught who don't have English as their first language/have severe SEN. Doesn't mean the teaching is not outstanding, but parents see the 'results' and, in an area with multiple primary schools and a degree of choice, they don't pick those schools. Funding then gets reduced as pupil numbers drop.

Schools in deprived areas tend to be repositories for the kids the schools high up in the league tables won't take. So these schools drop further down the league tables. Less popular schools get less money.

Some of us DO need 'rescuing'not because we aren't working our arses off for our own schools but because we've got a bigger mountain to climb.
And even if the parents weren't engaged, etc, even where they might just be sat back waiting for the handouts, the help isn't for them. It's for the kids who aren't to blame for any of this.

perfectstorm · 25/07/2024 09:27

Shakeoffyourchains · 25/07/2024 09:14

No, I think equating "not opposed to this policy" with "wanting to see SEN kids pubished" is a bullshit attempt at trying to guilt trip people into supporting your cause.

But thanks ever so much for demonstrating perfectly the way those against this policy twist things to suit their narrative.

I think you can support the policy, and also want kids whose SEN can provably be linked to the need for smaller classes and a quiet setting exempted.

Kids with EHCPs will already be exempted. But lots of kids don't have them in time, because getting one worth having these days can take more than two years. I think the exemption for SEN needs to be wider.

Shaketherombooga · 25/07/2024 09:30

mm81736 · 25/07/2024 09:21

Can I ask whether the private sector underwrite the cost to the state of training teachers eg underwriting student loans and ITT bursaries? Or do they just benefit from poaching qualified teachers?

Astonishingly you don’t even need to be qualified as a teacher to work in a private school…

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.