I genuinely want pro-VAT people to answer these two questions

[Seenandheard]

(1) Do you realise that a private school child saves the tax payer/government thousands of pounds per year by not taking up a space in state school? Not to mention the space in the classroom/competition for places? (Do you care about this point or gloss over it in your minds?!)

(2) Do ypu realise that taxing education is illegal in the EU?

Yes or no to both points, please.

I do not want reams of uninformed angry opinions. I don't want this to turn into a multi page thread/bun fight. I just want to understand whether people realise these two points, really, truly understand them. Because it seems to me that there is a mentality of "they're getting a tax break" (WRONG) or "they're taking something away from my child" (WRONG) or "they can afford it so they can spread their wealth a bit" (I'm not going into the fact that my family spend more on taxes than Nordic countries, who have a far, far higher standard of living. We give so much, get almost nothing in return- but apparently we need to give more. More. More.)

I think my deep rooted anger here is to do with people's attitudes and uninformed opinions more than the policy itself. I need to know if people are aware of the facts.

It's just hard to care when there are so many people with real financial problems.

1. Most fee-paying parents will continue to pay fees, as they're rich and it's important for them to send their kid to a fee-paying school, so I doubt the impact on states schools will be that bad.

2. We're not in the EU, so who cares? I'm not pro-brexit, but "EU says so" doesn't apply here anymore, so there's no point putting their views on a pedestal.

Try again? 😏 Get over yourself!

If they've been able to afford private school fees up to now and suddenly can't because of this tax hike, that will put them into financial hardship. Obviously. 😏

Exactly.

But if they pull their children out, they’ll have an extra £3k per child per month to play with. The fact they have spaffed money they apparently can’t afford up a wall doesn’t mean they are poor.

Would you say that somebody who just bought a Porsche was in financial hardship because it gets through a lot of petrol and costs a fortune to insure?

Lol no, financial hardship is choosing between heating and eating, struggling to afford charity shop clothes, borrowing £20 off a neighbour for cheap groceries until payday etc.

Not being able to afford a luxury that few have is not "financial hardship". If struggling to afford school fees is financial hardship, so is struggling to afford a new in ground swimming pool or a £1 mil+ house.

Dear me.
The categories of progressive, flat and regressive taxes is a seperate classification from income, wealth, luxury etc.

The VAT proposed by Labour is actually a flat tax as it is going to be applied to all private educational businesses for Yrs1-13 instead of only being applied to the economy level private educational businesses for Yrs1-13. VAT across the board for all consumers regardless of their income makes it a flat tax.

A regressive tax structure is what we have now, where only the consumers from lower income brackets pay tax on economy private education, but the consumers from the upper income brackets pay no tax on first class private education.

Economy= tutoring services (pay as you go by subject)
First Class= private schools (full package)

That's not how VAT works. Everything has to pay it. You don't get let off for not having DC, for example.

And the fact is parents with kids are private don't give a damn about state schools.

I don't believe in private schools because of the principle. Many people are the same. It's not becaus I don't care about rich people.

And I'm sorry you've had no holiday. I'm sure you realise many of us are in the same boat, still can't afford Private and can't afford to heat our houses either.

But don't forget they've not been able to afford private school fees and a holiday. So really, they're pretty much on the breadline!

@SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice

"A regressive tax structure is what we have now, where only the consumers from lower income brackets pay tax on economy private education, but the consumers from the upper income brackets pay no tax on first class private education. "

Actually the majority of one to one private tutoring is cash in hand so no VAT and no income tax. Even the larger tutoring schools are usually below the £85k threshold.

Exactly this! Especially:

I never thought I’d see so much hatred towards people who do put in rather than taking out.

Agree. The level of hostility and sheer nastiness towards those who are (currently!) able to afford private school for their children is unreal. Like it's a bad thing!?

You know what they say: 'Life is about choices. If you don't like your life, make better choices!' 🤷‍♀️

Or they might have had a holiday, but probably only one overseas, and the others this year were all in the UK! Which obviously don’t count. And the one overseas is probably still short-haul, poor lambs.

Oh yes, I forgot about that rule. All holidays within the UK are not actual holidays!

@absquatulize

"By the sounds of it Tarquin is a significant burden"

Well children can be as much or as little a burden as your personal parenting style dictates.

For example you can take time out of your evening to help them with their homework or just leave them to it. You can take time to teach them the times table or just put them in front of the TV. You can spend money on tutoring books or spend it on yourself. You can spend time and money talking them to university open days or just let them get on with it.

It is entirely up to each parent to decide depending on their outlook on education, available time and available money.

They might have to have given up their SKY TV package….oh, the shame

You know what they say: 'Life is about choices. If you don't like your life, make better choices!

Like not sending your child to private school when you know you can’t actually afford it, and then starting numerous threads on here about how unsympathetic everyone is? That kind of better choices?

Send your child to private school or don’t, I don’t care either way. It’s the constant whinging and insistence that the only reason nobody else is really interested is because we are secretly deeply jealous that I’m finding irritating.

Steady on! 🤣

@SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice

No, it is a luxury tax,
Wealth taxes tax assets.
😄

This is what happens when you pay someone to do your taxes for you, you become completely uneducated as to the different types of taxes.

If you believe that VAT is a luxury tax (it isn't), how do you explain the fact that cake and caviar are VAT free and yet toilet paper is standard rated? I'm not sure most sensible people would argue that loo roll is more luxurious than caviar.

This! Smacks of: 'My life's shit, so yours should be too!' It's SOOOO boring 😫

Personally I'm not hostile against users of private education, although I don't agree with it.

I do feel hostile against this winging about how difficult it is for rich people because as is always trotted out - we couldn't even afford a holiday this year!

And honestly life is also about luck. And if you don't realise that...well, it says it all.

No, the larger tutoring businesses are usually liable for VAT:

Tutoring fees are only exempt from VAT if the fees are paid

• “For private tuition”

AND

• “In a subject ordinarily taught in a school or university”

AND

• “The tuition is delivered by an individual teacher acting independently of an employer.”

The entire number of cash in hand sole trader tutors in the U.K. is dwarfed by just one of the larger tutoring businesses- Tutor Doctor whose revenues are around £672m annually.

If you don't agree with private schools not having to pay VAT it means your life is shit?? I suppose it depends what you mean by a 'shit life' but presumably one that doesn't revolve around money?

Well, no not really.

Those parents made the 'choice' to send their kids to private school, presumably already having worked out how they could fund that choice.
They didn't 'choose' to be slapped with a bill for 20% more.

What would you call the hostility towards fee paying parents if it isn't jealousy? I'll wait...

Standard rate VAT is for luxuries & nonessentials.
Reduced rate and zero rate VAT are for essentials.

Cake and caviar are zero rated because they are food.
Loo roll used to be a luxury, but in todays world it is more of an essential thus thre campaign to get it moved to zero rated.

The classification as to what is a luxury/nonessential or not is imperfect, but suffice to say that the purpose of standard rate VAT was to tax luxuries & nonessentials.

Irritation at yet another thread about it?

I have no issue with private school parents in general, my son plays tennis and rugby with children from various south London preps and I get on fine with the parents. But they don’t spend all morning banging on about how tight their diamond slippers are, due to their own financial decisions.

As I’m sure you’re aware, private school fees have gone up by far more than 20% over the past 5 years. If that sort of rise is unaffordable for you, you weren’t going to manage to put your kids through to 6th form anyway.