I genuinely want pro-VAT people to answer these two questions

[Seenandheard]

(1) Do you realise that a private school child saves the tax payer/government thousands of pounds per year by not taking up a space in state school? Not to mention the space in the classroom/competition for places? (Do you care about this point or gloss over it in your minds?!)

(2) Do ypu realise that taxing education is illegal in the EU?

Yes or no to both points, please.

I do not want reams of uninformed angry opinions. I don't want this to turn into a multi page thread/bun fight. I just want to understand whether people realise these two points, really, truly understand them. Because it seems to me that there is a mentality of "they're getting a tax break" (WRONG) or "they're taking something away from my child" (WRONG) or "they can afford it so they can spread their wealth a bit" (I'm not going into the fact that my family spend more on taxes than Nordic countries, who have a far, far higher standard of living. We give so much, get almost nothing in return- but apparently we need to give more. More. More.)

I think my deep rooted anger here is to do with people's attitudes and uninformed opinions more than the policy itself. I need to know if people are aware of the facts.

I have no children in private school and my DS attended state school.

However I don't agree with the VAT being charged mainly because I don't think private schools generally will close because of it, but it will make them even MORE elitist and make social mobility even harder. I suspect this will create more of a gap between the earning classes and the wealthy than ever before.

If you really want to level the playing you need to ban private education. This just makes things worse imo.

@Dibblydoodahdah the claim was that 80% of private school income goes on staffing. This is a claim that's been repeated several times now but I've yet to see any source for that claim. Do you have a source?

Here’s one for a prep near me which is actually on the larger side and has better facilities than most of the local stand alone preps. Total income: £4.281 million. Staff costs: £2.902 million. It’s difficult to get published figures for most of the smaller preps as they don’t file full accounts…but they don’t have many assets to maintain. That’s why they won’t be able to claim much VAT back.

Average across the UK, 5-16, was £7690 per student last year.

I've described the differences - and the private HA might look nicer, might give me advantages in certain situations, might make me feel good about being the sort of person who pays for their hearing aids, but it won't necessarily give me better hearing, because like innate intellectual ability, whatever has caused my hearing loss and tinnitus will still be there and nothing can change that. No hearing aid can fix hearing loss. A private school likewise won't necessarily give a better outcome than state, as the students' innate ability is the same either way.

Whatever hearing aid I might have - or have been persuaded is The Best Hearing Aid Money Can Buy by a very slick sales technique that also often dismisses the NHS supplied aids as being a bit rubbish, really or the opinions of others who can't imagine anything worse than going to an audiology appointment in a dingy, yellowing corner of a Victorian wing of the local hospital with a booth that looks like it was last seen in an episode of Blakes 7 when they could go into a posh clinic full of gleaming surfaces and posters/brochures of happy, white toothed, smiling people living their life to the full - I will still be able to access something that amplifies the particular frequencies I am not longer able to hear at normal volumes and deliver it into the receiver in my ear canal.

It's just my choice as to whether I take the free one available to me or if I wish to spend on the luxury version being sold to me that would be a bit nicer, a bit more convenient, easier to adapt to and would make me feel like I'm investing in my wellbeing, irrespective of whether I can actually hear more with it.

Could also be that the NHS one is exactly the same underneath the brand and model name sticker and a different colour, just like the NHS batteries are just the same as the size 13s sold privately that have the same voltage, but have a different name and maybe a different length tab cover - like the private school that has no better outcomes than the comprehensive.

Private schools are very good at marketing. They're very good at having facilities that look good. They're very good at persuading people who are considering them that they're vastly superior to the nasty old state schools. They're very happy to draw parents' attention to their alumni and the number of Russell Group/Oxford/Cambridge admissions/the international athletes, doctors, economists or musicians they've had attend there as children. Their sales pitch and marketing is how they draw customers in, just as how somebody at Specsavers or Boots or another place that sells hearing aids will use everything they can to convince somebody like me that it's worth giving them many thousands of pounds for something that isn't necessarily going to help me hear any better than the aid I can get for free.

Except that the private school may not always look nicer. I looked at plenty of preps that were in older, less well maintained buildings than the newly built state primary round the corner from my house. I recently looked at a private secondary for my youngest DC that doesn’t send any pupils to Oxbridge or Russell Group. In contrast, my oldest DC’s state school sends around 30 kids to Oxbridge every year and most of the rest go to Russell Group. A lot of private school parents just want their DC to be happy and in an evironment that doesn’t negatively impact their mental health and wellbeing.

Education is not a luxury and neither are hearing aids. They both shouldn't attract VAT.

Yes, I agree. A lot of strong opinions for something that is really nothing to do with them and won’t impact them at all.

This brings me back to the crux of the issue - envy.

lol. I see a lot of usernames that benefit bash, so I suppose only ok to punch down?

Per term, innit?

Private education is a choice you have. Just as you can choose to have private medical care - though if anything goes wrong you will still be treated by the NHS. Private schools are businesses and all businesses are liable for VAT. Because some schools were originally set up as charitable foundations (e.g. Eton) there has been a tax break, which applies to charities.
However, the new government has decided that charitable status does not apply to schools which are businesses and not contributing to the local weal. I think this is the politics of envy and will likely hit people who otherwise would vote Labour. I loathe the politics of envy and thus I do not support the removal of VAT exemption from private schools.
I have no solutions. I suspect I could have chosen the private route for my children (ex was very anti, though) but instead went the route of religious schools. When I see what has been going on in maintained schools I have every sympathy with people who pay for something where the kids at least do not jump on the tables and pretend to masturbate (I was a teacher, I have seen this happen). I breathed a sigh of relief when Gove (not someone I admire otherwise) forced maintained schools to teach reading using systematic synthetic phonics, and insisted on a knowledge-rich curriculum. I fear this government is going to backtrack on these progressive moves that have served our children well and children will be damaged.
Better than removing the VAT exemption was to have insisted that private schools share some facilities with state schools and engage in dialogue with them, maybe have pupil swaps, introduce state school pupils to the ethos of a private school and vice versa. They are not doing this. It will be a mess and will lose votes.
At least Labour will probably sustain the NHS.
My sympathy.
(NB I am a Bennite, Clause 4 Socialist, and a member of the Labour Party, in case anyone thinks I am a closet Tory.)

Yeah, I envy the spelling and grammar skills I've seen on here.

Exactly. And I will be paying university fees for my children up front - it’s less than school fees. This won’t be the case for state school kids. I honestly believe this is just the beginning and they will extend this tax to universities.

This is going to widen the gap and trust me, no one wants that. I don’t want to see bright and talented children miss out or be burdened with huge loans for life, plus VAT.

The education system needs change, but not this way. It seems like only the wealthy are being targeted, but it’s a diversion, and a stealthy way in the back door to tax everyone. Actually taxing the super rich would be more effective.

Tbh … if I didn’t think vat should be paid on private education . The self absorbed posts I have read have convinced me it’s a great idea .

hth

Envy…absolutely. Envy that because of circumstance we can’t all give our kids an equal slice of cake. ‘We work hard’ they clamoured. So does the person doing your Amazon deliveries, valeting your car or cleaning your house. Private schools are run as a profitable concern, they are a luxury. The tax is due. I’m sorry buying your way into privilege got a bit more expensive. Many are struggling to feed their family or heat their home. Get over yourselves ffs.

Absolutely agree that our focus should be on the 93% rather than the 7%. And that is my issue with the policy, it is very much focused on where the money is coming from (the 7%) rather than how specifically it is going to help the 93%. It's all very vague. Will it be spread equally through schools, will it be targeted at struggling schools? Will it be allocated per school or per pupil?

I personally hope some of the money is used to look at why some schools, with the same demographic intake, do so much better than others. There is an assumption that schools in more well off areas do better, but this isn't always true. The Michaela school is often mentioned as an example where a school in a very deprived area, with very limited facilities, acheives excellent results, I'm sure there are many many others.
It's like the NHS, higher funded than ever, and working worse than ever. Just throwing money at struggling schools isn't the answer, figuring out why they are struggling is.

The argument that private school parents are needed to fix the state system is at least funny. It exposes the subconscious inferiority complex that is driving this policy.

This this this

I thought you were all on the breadline and couldn't afford the tax. Do make up your minds.

Not asking anyone to feel sorry for anyone… just trying to state that it’s not always a minimal increase.

I don't think it's funny, I think its really sad that some state school parents and staff think that we can't sort our own sh1t out, so we 'need' private school parents with their money and sharp elbows to 'save us' poor wee helpless little things that we are. I do get your point, but just with a different feeling.

What about the assessments children need to sit to get into private prep and high schools? Maybe that has something to do with the results? They teach at a faster pace and at a higher standard. For example, the children don’t follow state curriculum and are ahead of state schools by a year. We receive information on this at report time and reminders that the children are assessed against their peers, not across the country, and average results at the school do not equate to average across the state.

There is definite advantage to private school. It’s unfair, but it exists.

You are right, every debate mentioning VAT on private school fees gets nasty.

That extra 20% could be the difference between having one children or two children if somebody is dead set on private school. Or in my case I’ll delay having my third.

Sounds like a strong argument for removing the two child cap for benefits, could we fund it by a wealth tax?

Paying an additional 20% to send your children to private school is a wealth tax.

”All on the breadline”? Erm… no. I’m not sure where you got that. The point is that those struggling won’t be able to afford it and the gap between the haves and have nots will widen.