I genuinely want pro-VAT people to answer these two questions

[Seenandheard]

(1) Do you realise that a private school child saves the tax payer/government thousands of pounds per year by not taking up a space in state school? Not to mention the space in the classroom/competition for places? (Do you care about this point or gloss over it in your minds?!)

(2) Do ypu realise that taxing education is illegal in the EU?

Yes or no to both points, please.

I do not want reams of uninformed angry opinions. I don't want this to turn into a multi page thread/bun fight. I just want to understand whether people realise these two points, really, truly understand them. Because it seems to me that there is a mentality of "they're getting a tax break" (WRONG) or "they're taking something away from my child" (WRONG) or "they can afford it so they can spread their wealth a bit" (I'm not going into the fact that my family spend more on taxes than Nordic countries, who have a far, far higher standard of living. We give so much, get almost nothing in return- but apparently we need to give more. More. More.)

I think my deep rooted anger here is to do with people's attitudes and uninformed opinions more than the policy itself. I need to know if people are aware of the facts.

Is reducing headcount the only possible way to reduce costs? No other way whatsoever? They couldn't, say, buy slightly cheaper hay for the stables?

Nevertheless I'm pleased to see you're making good progress with option 5.

Don’t care, don’t care.

But then I guess I’m not really ‘pro VAT’ just completely morally against the whole principle of private schools altogether…

Mmm... maybe because you're a nice person? And nice people generally care about others experiencing financial difficulties...

I'm not sure if most people realise that educational services in principle (of whatever nature) are exempt from VAT in most countries? It slightly annoys me that this has been spun as a closing of some kind of special loophole for private schools, when in fact it's the removal itself which is exceptional.

...but this is a choice these parents are making.

No, there are not enough state places for eveyone. When are people going to
stop spouting this crap.

Private schools can’t just decide to not pass the 20% on. They would have to make cost savings. Around 80% of an independent school’s costs are staffing so the only way to save on those costs is to make people redundant.

I’m glad you had a great state school education. I certainly didn’t which is why one of my DC’s is in a private school now. Why do you think that because you had a great experience, it will be the same for everyone?!

My comment wasn't related to education specifically.

More just the fact that jealous people appear to be delighting in others' misfortune. It's such an ugly trait...

2.Is a great point but we’re talking about a STANDARD level of education here. Taxing private school education and their extra curriculars they like to throw in like fencing and whatever else the other half do for fun. Tax them they can afford it

Given that around 80% of a private schools costs are staffing and pensions, yes that is the only realistic way.

And why the stupid comments about hay? What does that add to your argument except for showing that you have no idea about the average independent school?!

@HowardTJMoon

You clearly have no experience of private schools. The vast majority do not have stables. Those that do are likely to charge parents a livery fee. They are not buying hay out of the normal school budget. Most schools don't wear straw boaters either. This is the problem with the policy. Too many people don't understand what the vast majority of private schools are like. Many have worse facilities than state schools. Parents are often paying for smaller classes and a more nurturing atmosphere.

The ridiculous thing is that the wealthy schools (the type often portrayed in the media) will be able to reclaim a higher proportion of input tax. The smaller schools will have little to reclaim.

Whatever the type of school, the vast majority of their costs are staff costs. There is often little else to cut back on.

Stop being so over dramatic!🙄There are plenty of stats places and very few parents are going to pull their kids out to an education system they view with horror and feel is only good enough for the oiks.

Choice? I don't follow...

They can afford private education now but with this tax applied, they may no longer be able to and will have to remove their child as a result. As I see it, that's not really giving them much 'choice'.

Jealousy.... well that works both ways. My dc went to state schools which plenty of my friends and neighbours thought were beneath them. They've all done very well but friends are broke and wondering what they paid for.

But that’s always the case. Fees go up, wages go down, shit happens. Why has the rest of the country got to give a shit about access to a luxury service only the top privileged 6% can afford. It’s laughable. Read the room!

No there are not because the spare state school places are not spread evenly across the country. In the city where my DC’s private school is situated, there are no places in year 5 in any primary and only one school out of 30 has places in year 6. The capacity just doesn’t exist in some areas.

And stop with the “oik” language. No private school parent that I have ever come across would use such a derogatory term. Like many private school parents, I was state educated myself and I have one DC in a state school. I don’t consider myself or my DC an “oik”. What do you think this sort of comment adds to your argument?

@Dibblydoodahdah I must introduce you to my friends, they love talking about oiks, like my dc.

They are not your genuine friends then and you need to choose better.

And again stop being so over dramatic. It’s tedious.There will be plenty of places in counties. Numbers are falling, few will pull their kids out, few are in private education in the first place and private education covers 14 years
so they won’t all be piling into 1 year.

Maybe save your hysteria for the crumbling concrete in school buildings and the huge inequalities private education brings .

Given that around 80% of a private schools costs are staffing and pensions...

What a fascinating claim! How can we find out if it's true?

Yes to both your questions.

I’m concerned about the wider implications of Q2. Once you accept education can be taxed, what’s to stop VAT being applied to university fees and private nursery fees?

This, I'm afraid.

Irrespective of the impact on the state, that is a separate issue.
You partake in paying for a private service, it should attract tax.
Those that can't afford it wouldn't pay for the service, just like anything else in life.

1- yes I know it saves money in not taking up a state school place, which is good but I still think Vat should be paid and that is coming from someone who is paying for extra things for my child. He has tutors for maths, English and science and extra help to try and get him into medical school which is his childhood dream but a bit beyond us to be honest. I think I should have to pay for that extra help including VAT as I'm choosing to do it. I don't think it should be subsidised so I don't understand why private school would be. Subsidised by not having to pay VAT I mean.

1. I didn't know that but I know that in France for example private school is way cheaper comparatively than private school over here. (I live with a French teacher. As in she is French and is starting her first teaching job in September).

@HainaultViaNewburyPark it's a fallacious argument. Nurseries and universities are not for children of compulsory school age where there is a free alternative, and they don't entrench and perpetuate privilege in the same way.

Won’t somebody pleeeeeeease think of the (privately schooled) children!!

I am putting forward very reasonable arguments, there is no hysteria on my part.

The numbers are not dropping as much as originally thought. The DfE recently revised their figures. And, as I have said numerous times, the spare places are not spread evenly across the country.

Where is your evidence that few will pull their DC out?

Why don’t you concentrate on crumbling school buildings rather than coming onto this thread? Concentrate on improving state schools. There wouldn’t be any inequalities if state schools were improved.