To say vanity sizes should be rolled back?

[amoreoamicizia]

I bought some vintage St. Michael shorts this weekend in a size 12 which fitted me perfectly. In current sizes I'm an 8 or sometimes- incredibly- a 6 (looking at you, Boden).

As flattering as it is to think of myself as a size 8, it's simply not the truth or a reflection of reality. A small size 12 does seem about right, as that was my size as a slim-ish teenager in the 90s.

Who is this vanity sizing really helping? Who does it serve? Isn't it about time clothing manufacturers were held to account and forced to roll back sizes to what they were in the early 00s, at least?

I'm thinking that a a British 6 must be bigger than a North American six.
Yes I think so. I ordered my wedding shoes online in "my" size, a 5, but when they arrived from USA, oh dear. They were about a UK 4.

Totally agree! I'm pretty much the same size as I was when I was 20, 33 years ago, if not slightly bigger. Then I used to be a 10 or even a 12 in some shops, now I really struggle to find clothes that don't drown me and am even a 6 in some shops. Same with shoes, I used to be a 3 now many of them are far too big and wide.

So I'm thinking that a a British 6 must be bigger than a North American six.

It is. British sizes are out of step (so to speak) with other places in the world.

It's telling that designer sizes are absolutely tiny! And "mumsey shops" are huge.

Chinese sizes are also very small, not surprisingly, but for people who buy online it can come as quite a shock. That's not an issue, another country, another standard, it's not the same - but it shows how far we have gone with "vanity sizing".

Rich people tend to be thinner. And it's not "vanity" sizing.

In SML sizing, in lots of stores M is now a 14! I'm sure it used to be a 10 or 12.

Ah where would be without our regular Mumsnet threads of absolute batshittery regarding weight and sizes .

I would just like to say as someone who works in the NHS for a community and mental health trust - the majority of our young patients are in for eating disorders, often we have to staff 4 to 1 care for these patients because of how dangerous eating disorders are.

Do you have any idea what it’s like seeing young people starve themselves to death? Because I wish some of you could see it- it would nip a lot of this absolute fucking nonsense in the bud.

Well you'll be pleased to know that on Vinted a 14 is shown as equivalent to XL, so anyone looking for that size won't be able to stay in denial about how enormous they are.

Wouldn't a UK 6 be a US 2 in ladies clothes sizes?
Or did you mean a UK 6 is cut bigger than a US 2, not the actual numerical size?

Many years ago (the 90s), the standard size run was 8-16, so yes, the 12 would have been the medium and the size around which the others scaled. Bodies have changed and so has sizing.

Everyone knows that people have got bigger - some people seem to really enjoy acknowledging the fact at length - and yet there is still so much surprise and confusion that clothing sizing has changed to accommodate it. What exactly was the industry supposed to do?

Ok nevermind, I read other comments & see you're talking about shoes now!

not change the sizes? There are people still wearing size 6 of the 50s. Genuine vintage clothes still fit a lot of people. We are not talking about ancient Greece.
"Tall 6" works for people who got taller, but are just as slim.

Produce more 18 if more people wear a size 18, why the need to make it into a 12 or 14? If you genuinely believe sizes mean nothing, why changing them in the first place anyway?

We know why, that's why it's called "vanity".

Is it vanity though? If a 12 is a medium, and the overall population is bigger - doesn't it make sense that a 12 increases? The clothes makers are adjusting to their market, not responsible for ensuring we all adhere to a "healthy" size. And besides , times are different - in the 40s women had been under rationing for years, no doubt their sizes were different.

Has it really changed that much recently anyway, I was an 8-10 in the early 00s. I'm about a stone heavier now (and quite tall so I think carry it reasonably well) and I'm now a 10-12, which feels about right

not change the sizes?

When the bodies that they're trying to clothe have changed? That's just ridiculous. Why don't we still use sizing and patterns from the 17th century, if we must never change or adapt sizing?

When the average changes, everything changes. It is not cost effective or logistically practical to cater for relatively niche people as if they were the majority or average. That's why niche products exist.

The further you are from the average, the harder it will be to find products for you in the mass produced mainstream. This shouldn't be hard to understand, even if it is annoying.

We know why, that's why it's called "vanity".

It's the wrong name for it - it is actually size inflation - but people insist on calling it that because, as you are brilliantly demonstrating, some people just won't hear the truth, no matter how well it is explained by people who know what's going on. They are absolutely wedded to the idea that it's a mass conspiracy to lie to fat people and that their size should be the one to be prioritised and catered to in off-the-peg, mass produced garments. I've seen people on here demanding to know why size X isn't their exact personal measurements, no joke.

There are only so many times it can be explained. I understand that clothing is highly personal and emotive for women of all sizes and for numerous reasons but at the end of the day, if you won't accept the explanations given to you by people who make the clothes and work in the industry, then there just isn't much else to do. Find a local seamstress and get your clothes tailor made. More people should do this anyway.

I am listening to the explanations

I never said it was a conspiracy, it's a proven marketing technique. There are enough research published about it. Someone flattered by a smaller size is more likely to buy it. You can google that easily. It's a business after all.

I still can't understand the reasoning for removing clothes that fit an important part of the population.

I go back to my kids clothing example - there's a large enough market of kids with normal small hips who need smaller clothes, but we can't find them because the waist bands are huge. It's not the odd child here and there, it's entire classrooms! Girls get away with it because they can wear dresses or pinafore.

I don't agree with telling parents of perfectly average kids to get their school uniform tailor made.

I am listening to the explanations

No you're not, or you wouldn't be insisting on calling it vanity sizing or that the clothing industry not adapt to its changing market in the same way the car, chair, bed, sofa and doorway industries have (look at old houses!). And I thought it was obvious that I wasn't suggesting going tailor made for kids' school uniform, but I also thought that I and other posters had made the truth about size inflation obvious too. Wilful misreading to satisfy one's emotions about clothing; it doesn't surprise me but it's wearying.

The facts have been explained to you. The mass mainstream industry is not going to refuse to adapt to market changes; if it does, you'll soon have no clothes at all. It is a shame for you that in this era you are not the average and that sizing reflects that, but that has always been the case for some people. I am an exaggerated hourglass with massive tits and hips and a tiny waist - no matter what my size, I have never been easily catered to - I still can't buy bras in most places - and while it sucks, I do understand why. It's not personal.

You can continue to refuse to accept it if you like; the reality will remain and it cannot explained to you any better than it has been.

Perhaps the one thing that's being missed is that sizing is about scale. For logistical and cost reasons, sizes must be cut around the most common size, because the bigger and smaller sizes are scaled and cut as proportions to that one. In wider size ranges, you also need a sizing break to try to keep the proportions, otherwise the legs and sleeves etc keep getting longer too and eventually you're sizing not for more plus sized people, but for giants.

That's why the sizes need to change. At any given moment, for many practical reasons, they need to be based around the modal size. So if you've stayed the same size for 20 years but the population at large has got bigger, you'll move further and further away from that standard setting middle size that sells most. Is that frigging annoying? Sure. But it's why you can't expect them to keep your size the same and work around that.

And now I really am done. I can't explain it any better.

Oh my!!! No wonder I like to shop at NEXT and M&S! I’m even fatter than I thought I was! In the 90’s I remember being a size 12 in all shops but thought I was massive compared to my size 8 friends… I must be living under a rock - I had no idea this was a thing!!!

No you've explained it perfectly and it's why 12 and 14 sell out quickest and they're harder to get in the sale whereas the smallest and biggest sizes always seem available

And I can’t shop in either because none of their clothes fit me at all. I’m a 16/18 (down from a 22). They just aren’t the right shape. It’s about shape not just size and it’s nothing to do with vanity, as ably explained by @NonPlayerCharacter

Bummer. I hope you got a refund and found the right shoes for your wedding.
Btw, congratulations on that.

I'm not sure why you went there. Who said anything about food or diets? This is people frustrated because they're not sure what clothes size they are. Especially if you buy online, you can waste a lot of time and money because the sizing is wonky. It's not a big issue like eating disorders, but that doesn't give you cause to make accusations of batshittery and being cruel to people with eating disorders.

Is it vanity or are we coming more in line with us sizes?

us sizes are, or used to be, 2 sizes smaller than UK. So if you were UK10 you’d be US 6.

we were in lululemon the other day and the sales assistant made a point that you’d need to size down by two.

so is the us vanity sizing as well to maintain the gap?

Not necessarily

just because you are tall doesn’t mean you are wider or any more weight than a slim woman of 5 ft 3”

I have no idea on shoe sizes now
I'm reliably usually a 41 or 7.5 if available
Positive that 41 was a 7, 42 was an 8

I have a pair of boots from office that are a 41 and fit so ordered a different style, same brand. They've arrived labelled as a 41/8 and are too big so I need a 40 which I've never been in my life