To say vanity sizes should be rolled back?

[amoreoamicizia]

I bought some vintage St. Michael shorts this weekend in a size 12 which fitted me perfectly. In current sizes I'm an 8 or sometimes- incredibly- a 6 (looking at you, Boden).

As flattering as it is to think of myself as a size 8, it's simply not the truth or a reflection of reality. A small size 12 does seem about right, as that was my size as a slim-ish teenager in the 90s.

Who is this vanity sizing really helping? Who does it serve? Isn't it about time clothing manufacturers were held to account and forced to roll back sizes to what they were in the early 00s, at least?

It would be good if hip meant hip wouldn’t it, then we’d all know where we are. Lots of measuring instructions say to measure your widest part, which in my case is just below my hip.

Thank you.

Maybe people will believe you, because Lord knows they never believe me. I don't know why, but some people absolutely must believe that it's all a huge conspiracy to flatter fat women into thinking they're thin and absolutely nothing to do with the mere practicalities of clothing needing to get bigger and sizing being about scale, based around the most popular size.

@fc123 really interesting, thanks.

It's abit like weather then, when meteorologists talk about the weather and new 'highs' when they compare the weather to the average they are comparing it to the last 30 years average, so we are in the 1991-2020 section now opposed to comparing to early so the average shifts upwards as the years increase.

Yes 🙂. And the average has changed over the decades so our base size blocks changed to reflect that.
as an aside, I'm now helping in my daughters business which is baby wear NBorn up to age 4.
I've just helped her create a new set of size blocks for her factory to base the patterns on.
babies/ toddlers are bigger now too so we regraded everything to suit her 'average ' customer ( mostly UK based) based on her experience ( and her own 2 children plus all her mates babies/toddlers).
theyre definitely a bit more generous than cheaper high st brands baby wear but they fit well and proportions are perfect ( I think!!)

Something needs doing.

probably the best solution would be to label everything by cm or inches, e.g. a 28" waist trousers/skirts but then again, everything seems to be stretch material now or come with a horrible elasticated/gathered waist.

Every time I look online for trousers, coulottes or a skirt, I see something nice with a flat (seemingly) waistband but lo and behold, you check the back view and there it is - a horrible, bunched-up elasticated waistband.

Back to sizing, I remember in the 80s when people used to refer to 'the average size 10 girl.' A size 10 was a 32" bust, 24" waist and 34" hip. I was enormous by all accounts as a size 14 - that's the point at which all clothes in shops and dress patterns stoped being produced. Now that size 14 is a size 8 in some shops. Madness.

Really interesting @fc123 - so the change in sizes is essentially business models adapting.

I hope your daughter's business goes well. What a talented bunch of women the fc family are.

Exactly this. It's just an excuse to have a dig at people who aren't waifs. "Very large" at a size 12 is just spiteful.

Kind of.
I think sofas and chairs are bigger too now.
I had a popular body con range about 15 years back. Yes, it could have been called 'body fascist' in some ways but it was targeted at dancers, young women etc and I remember after a couple years the size L never sold so I chose to label up as XXS XS S M and omitted the size L
And shifted the sizes down so the M became the old L etc.
Then it sold .
To be honest I never gave it much thought at the time, just reacted to how my customer purchased things.

Thank you.
Patterns are just flat shapes that create a 3D to go around the body.
Baby wear has its own challenges ( like cute chubby arms, space for nappy etc etc!)

The pattern dept in any large corporation will be aware of their 'target customer ' anyway. Age etc.
M and S ( as an example) do have an older customer base for their ladies wear so I would imagine their fit and size charts reflect that.
I'm 61 but slim yet I'm definitely bigger around my waistline than I was 40 years ago and my bottom isn't so peachy now.
So if I was cutting a dress pattern for myself now ( size 8) it wouldn't fit a 20 yr old the same as she would likely have a smaller waist but more fullness around the bust and hips.

Classic customer profiling! Dancers tend to be slimmer, so dancewear comes up small. If we had standardised sizing across the board, makers couldn't do this.

I find it very irritating that it's not possible to buy a shirt from M&S, for example, because I need a size 8.

You can see here. Model wears a size eight. The shirt is huge! Look how much extra material there is around the waist especially. And she's tall - if I put that shirt on at my height, it would look like I was wearing a nightie.

https://www.marksandspencer.com/pure-cotton-broderie-shirt/p/clp60651508?intid=mobile_app_pdp_share

Surely we deserve to have clothes that fit us though?? Why so bitter?

i think it depends on your shape as well.

i am an hourglass. Back in the 80/90’s I learned to stick with certain brands. Topshop and the like were shaped for Kate Moss fashion, straight up and down. So even if you sized up the proportions were wrong- if they fit my hips or bust they’d be massive elsewhere. I’d be a comfortable size 10 in brands cut for hips/waist/boobs.

the style of that era was designed for that shape as well, satins, cross cut skirts that looked shit on me.

nowadays the cuts are less like that, so it it that sizes are bigger, or just cut for women rather than the 90’s size 0 beckham body type.

going back further as pp said women were smaller, possibly due to the post war years and the fenfen years.

i am 10lbs heavier than I was post kids, and I’m only a size bigger than I was in my 20’s.

Rubbish! I've found this thread very informative (special thanks to @fc123 !).

It's an issue. We're getting fatter and masking it by changing clothes labels. A size 12 now is much larger than it was 20 years ago. Fact, not spite.

I think overweight isn't good but think women were also too thin back then due to poor nutrition etc. I'm slimmer than most people I know and see walking around but I would be classed as big back then.

But shouldn’t we all then be looking to other markers that demonstrate whether we are overweight or not - such as actual weight? Few people are stupid enough to believe that they are healthy if they are (for example) 14 stone but can fit into a size 12 or 14. If someone is a size 12 and with a healthy BMI, then what exactly is the problem - who cares what people weighed/fit into two decades ago!

Yes it's fact that sizes have increased but it's not true to say that all size 12s are very large, or even large. If you're tall, size 12 can be slim. As I said I'm tall and a size 12. BMI is 22. At my recent health check the doctor said I was the perfect weight.

👏👏👏

This.

I see no reason to make sizes smaller tbh. It would be much more useful to have consistency in dress size across different shops/brands.

Tbh that's exactly how I know it's time to rein it in - my waistband gets a bit uncomfortable. I never weigh myself. If I was still wearing size 12s I'd be heavy and unfit.

I suppose it depends how far back you want to go for your standard size 10?
1910, 1940, 1960, 1980 ,2000?

People are taller and broader than in 1924.

@SallyWD Same, I'm 5ft 7 and slim at size 12. Smallest I could get down to is size 10 when all my bones were sticking out, periods stopped, always cold etc. I have a wide skeleton.. We're all different.
I remember Samantha Janus in Eastenders was a size 14 and was really slim.

It absolutely is a fact and I don't think anyone disputes it. It's the reason for it that gets people worked up. It's not a vanity-based conspiracy to lie to fat people. It's pure logistics to keep up with a population of bigger people.

If we didn't ever recalibrate sizes, we would still be using patterns and measurements from 1750.

I don’t think anyone is digging at people who aren’t waifs. I do think people are kidding themselves about how big they are. And I include myself in that, I gained weight slowly and didn’t notice until I was weighed by my GP. Why? Because I was still wearing a size 12.

We don’t need to go backwards to set the standard but we do need one to help us going forwards.