To be glad that the VAT on school fees

[Shaketherombooga]

Is now going to be happening in January? what’s the point in stalling it? I think it’s one of many decisions that we just need to get in with.

YABU - it’s SO unfair. Labour hates ‘strivers’ etc etc

YANBU - Yup, Labour said they are taking away tax breaks for private schools, so let’s get on with it.

I listened to a really interesting podcast the other day about women online being able to express their anger in a way that they couldn't in real life. I've been thinking about that a lot reading this thread.

This one really bugs me too - the comments that say state school parents need private school parents to come in to improve their child's school - because the parents at that school are somehow incapable of, or not bothered enough about fighting for their own children's education to improve it themselves. Hugely patronising and an over simplification of a complex challenge.

Ditto, I and my husband attended state school, my children attend state school, I also work for the NHS. But the level of spite and glee at the thought of children having to move schools, including children with SEN, people loosing their jobs and possibly their homes, all for a potential 0.5% improvement in state school education is really awful.

Can I ask an honest question-

From reading the consensus on MN on these threads - it appears that some posters are upset about private schools in general and the privilege and wealth some people have.
They seem to be deflecting their anger of their upset of the English education system and class system and what is on offer and projecting this onto an argument on VAT on private school fees, and it seems to be giving them a little bit of power/ control / smugness. (that in most cases make no difference to those in private schools as most will be still able to afford it or private schools will offset the increase anyway).

So my question is this- you’ve been openly able to assert your opinions over private school by using the leverage of the proposed VAT increase BUT…. Do you also walk around getting angry at those-

• shopping in Waitrose
• Driving expensive cars
• turning left on a plane
• Owning seconds homes

the list could go on. The reaction to the proposed VAT increase seems like a more wider issue of those who have more wealth than they have. Do you walk around angry most of your days as you see people who you perceive have better things than you do?

you are really missing the point. It's not about wealthy people existing, it's about ensuring all children start from a level playing field.
A child does not choose their household income.

The weird thing is that so many state school parents say it. ‘Our schools would improve if private school parents joined them’. Why are they themselves not challenging the system now if it’s that easy? Esp if so many ‘could afford private but choose not to’ so they clearly have the means. What do they think these other former private parents are actually going to do?

If they think private school parents will change the culture, why don't all the parents who could afford private school change the culture?

Children will never start from a level playing field. I absolutely do understand why people feel that private schools give some.an unfair advantage. Why not learn from them then?

Or they may use it towards the increased nhs and tea her wage bill. Which I think they absolutely deserve, but it's frustrating that the tiny amount of money potentially going to be raised from this (relative to overall spend) is apparently going to cover at least 3 different things, when it doesn't even cover 1 of them!

I had high hopes for RR as Chancellor, she has a background in economics which I thought would help her to make well thought out, fully funded decisions. Month 1, and it's already a mess of broken promises and unfunded projects.

In fact, the harder you work, the less you get paid

Do people genuinely believe this?

Deflection tactics at play?

You've missed the point. There will never be a "level playing field."

State schools vary massively, and a child does not choose the catchment area they live in.

Parenting varies massively, and a child does not choose the parents they are born to. And I could keep going.

From some of the attitudes on here, the risk is some private school parents changing the culture for the worse!

In my, then, innocence and I should add that I, my siblings and all our cousins were at fee-paying schools, I honestly thought that state schools were for those, whose parents could not or would not pay for education.
I am considerably older now and realise that there is a large section of the population, who think that the state owes them a living and should provide for them from cradle to grave, so that they do not have to make any kind of effort or sacrifice.
There are countries, not that far away, where state education "works" more or less.
Sadly the UK has become a land of "consumers", where entitlement to state provision seems to negate any kind of personal effort.
My school was founded over 360 years ago to educate girls.
When I was there we had a vast range of social mix, as intake was based on intellectual ability, in the first instance. Some girls coming up through the junior school were asked to leave at various points, as the school recognised they would not meet the rigorous academic standards.
Having done teaching practice in a huge comprehensive, I think that lumping children into mixed ability settings is not the right thing and that mixed sex education does not benefit either sex.
But hey, there are ideologies, most of which have little to no basis in the real world.

I was honestly about to post the exact same observation.

I find it bizarre that private school -= privilege but spending that same money on house in catchment area of outstanding statement school somehow is not. Or even banking the money and giving your child the £250k to help them buy a flat is somehow ok as long as they went to state school.

I saved money to pay for secondary school for my children. I will pay the VaT (I’m actually almost through now so doesn’t really affect me much anyway. I also don’t resent paying more tax- I 100% would have zero problem with an extra 1% on NI) but I genuinely just find it strange that this choice of how to spend your money is vilified by many but it ignores the fact that the children still have the same parents whatever school they go to, they still have the same parental contacts whatever school they go to etc. I personally believe that what school you go to is only a tiny part of how well a child does in life. Parent wealth, ambition, inherited academic ability, entrepreneurial tendencies all are far more important. I can’t remember the last time anyone asked me where I went to school tbh.

Sorry I don’t understand? Me deflecting or the OP? I am a bit lost!

Children will never start from a level playing field. Some have learning disabilities, some have physical disabilities, some have both. Some are life limited, some are brighter than others,some are naturally faster,or more musical. Some are born to richer or poorer parents, some have 1 and some have 2 and some have no parents, some have parents who are interested and emotionally engaged, some do not.

The world will never be equal, but it's up to us as parents to make the best choices we can for our children. If they need something it's up to us to provide it, not the taxpayer, not the 'state' but us.

Do you walk around angry most of your days as you see people who you perceive have better things than you do?

Lots of people in this country do feel this way, yes.

This is my opinion as well. State schools range from leafy lane (often more affluent than some private schools and less SEN/ EAL children) to the school I work in with a huge number of asylum seekers in and children who need their teeth brushing and breakfast each day. Even in state schools it’s not fair or even - it represents life. We are all different- we have different jobs, homes, holidays and schools reflect this.

The argument every child should have the same opportunity is void as they do- all
children in England have access to state schools. Within that there is a range of what they offer.

I teach children for 32.5 hours a week, there’s 168 hours in a week. The rest is spent sleeping or with parents etc . The children don’t go home to the same houses, hobbies , parents . Some have lovely homes , others have no carpets.

The argument on here for the VAT is inconsequential- it’s more an opportunity for posters to rally against private schools and people’s wealth. If they really are adamant they are fighting for child equality then that’s very admiral of them but not very realistic. I don’t have the same job as my neighbour , or the same car but I don’t whine about it and say we should all have the same.

‘ Do you also walk around getting angry at those-

• shopping in Waitrose
• Driving expensive cars
• turning left on a plane
• Owning seconds homes

’

1st off - I’m not angry that people use Private schools but I do think those BUSINESSES should be treated as such and the fact they are allowed to dodge taxes that businesses pay does piss me off.

Waitrose? Shop where you like. Most people use a mix of supermarkets anyway.
Car - up to you what you drive, newer cars are more likely to be better for the environment
travelling 1st - fill your boots. It helps keeps the cost of the other seats down. I have travelled 1st for work and personally wouldn’t pay the money myself as I don’t think it’s worth it. A bit like using a private school, it’s mostly for show.

Owning 2nd homes - if you have the extra cash, do what you like with it. Buy property ( pay the taxes) bulk up your pension ( save in tax) pay school fees ( with VAT). There may be some moral judgment in some areas, like Cornwall, where rich 2nd home owners are pricing out locals and their kids, and helping the demise of local communities but if you can square that with your conscience, so be it.

Although I would suggest that someone able to travel 1st class by air and own a 2nd home can probably scrabble together the extra % that your school might now add to your kid’s fees.

Children will never start from a level playing field, so let's work hard to ensure this is further entrenched by having a system whereby the wealthy send their children to schools with amazing facilities.

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Of course the world will never be equal, but as a society we can strive to provide equity so that those children from less well off areas do not sink further into disadvantage.

I am a tax payer myself and absolutely want this, it's all part of being a member of civilised society.

Same way I want there to be decent hospitals for everyone and decent care for the elderly.

They won't. And we have established that there will minimal if any monetary gain, and even if there is, it may not go to schools.

So if there is no likely improvement through shifting 'sharp elbowed parents' and no likely significant financial benefit to state schools, why on earth did Labour introduce this policy????

Apart from some vague comments about 'levelling the playing field' and 'reducing the social divide', please can someone who is in favour of it please explain why it's a good idea, with concrete numbers and evidence, as my (state school) educated brain is really struggling to understand it.

Once we have implemented this VAT, I wonder if the next step shouldn’t be to vary the funding for state schools slightly?

An underperforming school in a poor area should have more funding than an outstanding school in a leafy area, especially if the posher school has brilliant results and wealthier parents. I believe that would address quite a lot of the inequalities.

‘Do you walk around angry most of your days as you see people who you perceive have better things than you do?’

No, because I don’t consider private school to be better. Far from it. I’m also lucky enough ( or worked hard, strived etc if you prefer) to now be a high earner, but from a WC background. And am involved in Education.
So I walk around a lot of the time thinking, how can we make this better?

Anyway, pay your taxes. Stop complaining. And get ready for the next change of the charity status going - as that means private schools masquerading as charities will start having to pay business rates and no doubt the schools ( being businesses) will pass as much cost onto the parents as they can get away with.

They already do. It’s called Pupil Premium. They also have a Service Pupil Premium for young people with parents in the forces.