To be glad that the VAT on school fees

[Shaketherombooga]

Is now going to be happening in January? what’s the point in stalling it? I think it’s one of many decisions that we just need to get in with.

YABU - it’s SO unfair. Labour hates ‘strivers’ etc etc

YANBU - Yup, Labour said they are taking away tax breaks for private schools, so let’s get on with it.

I think there are almost bigger inequalities between the best and the worst of the state sector than there are between private and best of state.

catholic schools come to mind. The catholic schools near me are like private schools - their websites, outcomes etc. it is no coincidence at all that many sharp elbowed parents suddenly find god to get their kids into these schools. Is that really any better for equality than parents paying for private?

Similarly, people moving into small catchments. I know many people contemplating a move rather than paying fees now VAT is a factor. It’s arguably going to be a better ROI on the money.

I don’t want to pretend to be catholic or move so looking at rubbish comp v private. What the VAT means is we’d most likely to private for 5 years instead of 7 and then look at state 6th form places where the catchment is much wider. Or if we go for the comp, we’d be ploughing money into tutoring, extra experiences and aiming to get ourselves into best position to retire early. We could take our foot off the pedal re jobs.

Has anyone commented on where the 6500 new state school teachers are going to come from once the money becomes available to train them?
Last I heard teaching was badly paid and highly stressful and it was really hard to recruit them. There is also a brain drain of UK teachers into international schools abroad.

What is going to be done to attract them?

There must be huge inequalities in state because the state schools discussed on these threads bear absolutely no resemblance to any near me. Small class sizes, swimming pools, full of super academic kids and a huge proportion to Oxbridge. Tons of extra curricular, expensive trips abroad, Latin, Greek, a rigorous volunteering programme, impossible to get any better at private school. And of course all the teachers are fantastic.

I have friends who have had to fight through the courts to get their children an adequate education (with the courts condemning their treatment by their local authority and lack of education). But when the courts now weigh up the respective cost to the local authority, of the poor mainstream placement versus the independent specialist school that can actually meet their needs, will they include the cost of VAT?

Nothing. I think they are getting a tiny pay rise, which will wipe out any financial advantage from the VAT.

I keep seeing posters claim there are 1000s of school places available and those leaving Private schools will have to take those places in often very rural or failing schools, but of course they won’t. Ex-Private school parents will move to take advantage of catchment areas and leverage the appeals process when they don’t get in.

in a matter of a few terms they’ll be in the best schools pushing out more economically disadvantaged children who will suffer exponentially due to the compounding of issues such as long commutes etc

definitely a case of be careful what you wish for.

Yes. The new government has been very well received by everyone I know in education, the first message from the new minister was a complete breath of fresh air compared to the way teachers have been used to getting beaten by government.

Teaching isn't badly paid, apart from law, medicine and finance, it compares well to other graduate jobs (and requires shorter training). It has become unattractive because of the demands placed on teachers and there's a genuine feeling that that is changing already. Obviously time will tell how successful it is, but 6500 isn't many as a % of graduates, so it won't take much of an improvement to recruit them.

There are HUGE inequalities in state.

Really? The news story about having to use isolation less hasn't gone down at all well with a teacher I know.

Also not much use if there are school places in Barrow if your child is in Harrowgate.

Is it going to happen: ultimately, yes

Will it get caught up in legal challenge: yes

Will it raise any money for state schools: no

Will children leave private school for state schools: yes. I know several who are planning on moving.

Do all areas have spaces: no. Our city has 0 secondary school places. It’s 16+ miles to the nearest school with a place.

Will it impact me: no. We are fortunate enough to be able to afford it.

Is it going to be easier for those who can pay to get into schools: yes. I have already seen different and easier entry requirements.

Will it increase inequity in both sectors: of course.

Is the OP just looking to pick an argument: probably.

Yep!! Just keep everyone in a one bedroom house with 10 kids, no inside bathroom, no heating, shoes with holes in. Rickets, polio, diphtheria, high infant mortality, no welfare state. No. NHS. Keep everyone on their arses
Equality innit

What is 6500 as a percentage of all graduates who like the idea of teaching as a job though?

I imagine that the vast majority of people emerging from 2 decades of being in education as pupils aren’t hugely inspired to stay there for their career as well. It’s quite niche choice, even before you get into the money and working conditions.

Not flexible on hours either and impossible to WFH. Long hols not as big a draw as they once were.

I live in a million pound state catchment that is also close to several amazing private schools. The state catchment schools used to have swimming pools and sports facilities paid for by donations but over the years as they expanded their catchments to more deprived areas to gain enough students to justify opening they had to close it. As parents living in deprived areas wanted the ‘high status’ facilities in ‘high status’ schools without paying for them.

This year things like swimming pools etc that were closed have now reopened as more local parents are sending their kids and bringing with them donations (eg ten new parents clubbed together and paid for the upkeep of the pool for their local school for 5 years through their businesses - that’s 100ks). The schools have also stopped extending their catchment. They are also taking legal advice to see how they can remove / reduce out of catchment kids who already have places.

This is a state catchment. So yes inequalities in state education are huge. But Labour doesn’t want to tackle them as Labour MPs benefit from them. They just want to stop poor / lower middle class /people of colour to strive for private schools.

I went to a selective school where there were 3 classes of 22 pupils each. We had beautiful grounds, huge playing fields, and a long history. We had prize giving, a Latin school motto, a school song (with humourous variations) and we'd all file down to the local church for founder's day. We were excellent at sport (and only really played the other selectives) and got the best results in the county for gcse and a-level. My school was a state school and my parents never paid a penny for it. Down the road, the kids that didn't pass the exam at 11 went to a school that was very, very different. The idea that 'state' is the same is so flawed. There's a state school near me that has such a small catchment that everyone who goes there live in houses worth at least 800k. My SEN son is at an independent and I have a huge mortgage on my £250k house. But apparently I'm the privileged, out of touch one. Also a lifelong labour supporter. I really hoped all this vitriol and gloating and division might stop once we got the Tories out. There's so much hatred on both sides. It makes me want to cry.

I wonder if councils will have to pay vat on the places they pay for in private schools?

Is the OP actually Angela Rayner?

Are you serious?

Yes they will

Another unintended consequence!!

lol I really can’t stand her- she wants to bring everyone down to her level as she has a chip on her shoulder!

“It’s the weird British class system that is perpetuating all this - let’s face it THATs what these private parents are ‘striving’ to do - to gain the social capital that often goes with these schools”

Yawn.

I am not part of the British class system because I’m not British. My husband came here as a child refugee. You should see the schools in his country (and mine, to a lesser extent). Though the likes of Farage would have had my husband sent back, he did fine in the U.K. state sector, despite a disability due to the situation where he came from and needing to miss huge chunks of school because he was in and out of hospital until the age 11. In his adult life, he went on to create over 2000 jobs in the U.K. and has paid millions in tax. Sending our kids to independent schools had nothing to do with ‘British class’. It’s a simple fact of - independent school 5 mins walk away achieved 95% A-A star at GCSE. State school achieved 18% A-A star. To us the money was worth it for the far greater academic certainty snd almost guaranteed top results. But it has nothing to do with ‘class’. I don’t think I met anyone in the schools who had 2 British born parents. That’s the reality in the schools. If you have a child who gets through the entrance exam processes where there are 10 applicants per place, and you can afford to pay, then you probably will. It’s very area-specific though. If we lived in another area in the U.K., they might have gone to a state school or s grammar. London is an anomaly, for sure. But then lots if places are anomalies because the state system itself is inherently unfair as it is.

You talk about all these spare places at schools in your region - as if everyone can just send their kids on the train your way or something. I can tell you there are no excess state school places in our area of London - precisely because so many (most?) use the independent sector. So there has been no need to build adequate state school capacity for local populations. I couldn’t even tell you what our local state secondary would be - I can think of one school, but the catchment is tiny and all the houses in that catchment would be £2- £3 million. The other school nearby would be The London Free School - an academy with very unclear admissions process (no catchment or something like that). Doubt we’d get in there. Who knows? And the other school is in another borough so doubt we’d have got them in there and we wouldn’t have sent them there anyway. If that were the only option, we would have moved to where better schools are.

People come to this country to do the best they can and provide safety and the best education they can access. It is not fair that some can pay fees while others can’t, no. But is it fair that some can access grammars while most of the country can not? Is it fair that some have access to academies when the majority do not? Is it fair that some can get into high performing faith schools while the majority can not? Is it fair that some can pay thousands / millions in stamp duty and inflated house prices to move into catchment areas for the best schools, No. Is it fair that some children in other countries can’t even go to school at all? No.

The U.K. state system is not going to be fixed by the token amount raised by this tax. Education in this country is a total postcode lottery. That’s precisely why independent schools exist - especially in densely populated areas of London where the differences between schools are stark. This is why people pay for schools - safety and near-guaranteed excellent results. The teachers are no better necessarily, it’s just that the peer group influence each other to do well because aiming for 9s and A stars is the norm, no big deal. It has nothing to do with Mungos and Henriettas or whatever. Maybe in the countryside that sort of thing goes on, but I don’t know and I don’t care. We voted Labour anyway - but this schools fees tax will just be one of many taxes. You yourself will no doubt be paying more tax in some form of other in the near future OP, so stop worrying about this school fees ‘easy headline’ tax and plan for the other taxes coming all our ways, whether explicitly or by stealth.

No problem with VAT on school fees, so long as this includes all private educational endeavours including nursery and university provision, and also VAT on all private health care. Otherwise this is simply the politics of envy and a tax on aspiration.

Never going to happen. Dream on...

No, obvs I didn’t. I’m just glad it looks like it’ll be Jan and not dragged out for another year or more.