To be glad that the VAT on school fees

[Shaketherombooga]

Is now going to be happening in January? what’s the point in stalling it? I think it’s one of many decisions that we just need to get in with.

YABU - it’s SO unfair. Labour hates ‘strivers’ etc etc

YANBU - Yup, Labour said they are taking away tax breaks for private schools, so let’s get on with it.

Where are Starmer’s 6500 teachers coming from for state schools? Recruitment is down, retention is down and predictions about spaces in state schools have been over-estimated.

It’s a perfect storm for state ed. Out pricing many families from indie ed just adds to it.

Genius!

I totally agree@Wishihadanalgorithm I wonder where the 6500 teachers are going to magically appear from too.

I live in Derbyshire. There are spaces in local
Primary schools but the secondary school in my town is close to capacity and the two nearest others are already over capacity.

Just stating the facts.

You’re right the 93% should be working class plus middle class already going to state schools. Typing too fast. The power balance argument still stands though. The more middle class that stand with the working class, the more the scales tip in favour of serious political pressure to reform and fund state schools.

Every teacher in my school has QTS. We don’t employ those who haven’t got it. Interestingly, most have taught for many years in state ed so are experienced professionals.

I can’t speak for all, but many like me, left for better conditions and pupil behaviour. What is going to drag these people back to state ed until it’s significantly improved?

Don’t worry then. Due to the lower birth rate, the spaces in primary will carry on as the kids age to become spaces in secondary. If your primaries were oversubscribed, then Derbyshire would be building new secondaries.

The problem is the super rich won’t care and this will affect the middle classes who can only just afford it. People trying to give their kids the best education they can.

I think September 2025 is most likely. That will allow parents to apply for state schools at the usual time and children won’t have to leave mid year. It will probably cause the closure of some private schools so introducing it next September will mean exam years can continue until the summer.

That is if they can work out a way to make it legal. Previous Labour governments have struggled with that.

I must say your post makes me very happy that my children are going to university outside the uk and we will be moving back abroad.

Would you move your children then? I get it'll be more money, and unaffordable for some, but I'd imagine parents with children with SEN in private school will be very reluctant to move to state schools given the lack of resourcing and if they don't already have EHCPs.

I feel for them, the system isn't fair at all. For what it's worth, my kids school is under subscribed even though the outcomes are excellent. We have lots of SEN children join and leave who haven't found good schools before, come for a while, and then often move onto specialist settings once the SENCO has supported them. I hope, whatever happens, SEN families have good support, it's a dire picture out there currently.

What? I don’t give two shits about Oxbridge, the poster I was responding to was saying that they’re going to take their private school kids, put them in state schools and spend tons of money on tutors and it will be sooo much easier to get them into Oxbridge because they will be coming from a state school.

This is another myth going the round from parents with kids in private schools. They resent the steps Oxbridge has taken to admit more state school kids, but the reality is that private school kids are still very much privileged in terms of admission as they are 9.6x more likely to get into Oxbridge than a state schooled kid.

Why don’t you think school fees should have VAT on them? You enjoy making things even easier for the poor little rich kids?

You aren't factoring in the thousands of new houses being built...

That usually involve new schools being built too….

No country in the world levies tax on education. The EU even went as far as to make it unlawful to add VAT to fees.

Many countries go further and give income tax relief to parents who use private schools in acknowledgment of the fact they are saving the state money.

Do you consider Labour are right and the entire rest of the world are wrong?

MN really needs to introduce a wooden spoon icon. Or a Kitchenaid mixer. Or some other symbol of gleeful stirring.

Perhaps you'd like to advise the authorities of their responsibilities in the school building area? So far, plans have been mentioned over the next ten years. Not much help if there is big influx of children now.

The main issue for the country is the dire challenge faced by state schools. The lack of funding. The focus on Ofsted. The social and health issues leading to children being unable to cope with schools. Parental disengagement. Stupid attendance targets that punish the sick. No support for SEN. Lack of resource in CAMHS. Teachers’ pay and conditions. Cost of living issues. Poor building stock.

These all affect how children perform at school. The relatively small number of middle class kids entering the state sector and the few millions raised by VAT won’t touch the sides of the issues.

The Labour government is making a grand gesture which no doubt won votes. But what else is it actually going to do to improve schools for kids, teachers and parents? This will not be enough. Not in any way. The OP and their ilk can feel euphoric for a while. What then? They will get a shock when it’s business as usual in the state sector.

*of course great state schools exist. But the impassioned and despondent comments from lots of teachers on MN show that there are huge problems in many schools.

Which will need staffing. Again, where are all these teachers coming from?

We're all trying to give our kids the best education, state or private.

I hope the VAT from super rich families feeds back into state schooling.

The U.K. already taxes education provided by tutoring businesses that exceed the VAT threshold.

Many countries do not have free at point of service state funded education, so parents pay contributory fees to send their children to a state school. That is a de facto tax on all education imho. It is why over 72 million children have never gone to school and over 750 million adults are completely illiterate.

Because the people who "just about afford" to send kids to independent schools will now be priced out, and the very wealthy won't bat an eyelid. The rough £3-6000 increase in fees may as well be £3-600 for some people.

I don't think you realise just how much money some people have.

I used to work at an independent boarding school, fees were around £29,000. Many families had 2-3 kids attending at the same time, kids dropped off by drivers, Sumners on yachts, skiing in the winter etc. These families could easily afford the £100k+ it took to send their 3 kids there, what's another £10k?

Yeah we have 3 children currently in an independent schools. Our decision for putting them in was purely based on wrap around and cover so we could both work our jobs so more than happy for them to be in state schools (I’m a massive advocate for state school improvement as a state head teacher for a primary school myself). We can’t afford the 20% increase so are moving our children. We have decided we will see where they get into and make a decision on jobs etc once we know more and if we can get wrap around for them to allow us to do our jobs still.

What we’re seeing is parents applying for ECHPs who are in private schools now increasing. They don’t necessarily need them as the school can to an extent meet their needs but they will need them in place for the state school they move to and would get one. They’ve almost been cushioned in the current school they are in. I feel sorry for these parents as they really push and work all hours to put their children into the independent schools to meet their children’s needs but can’t afford after the additional 20% gets added. It could be a positive as it forces schools to invest more into SEN and also the government could create new SEND / SILCS in response to the increase into state. Again this would benefit schools as a whole but is costly and requires investment and qualified teaching staff.

A lot of MN threads show just how many parents are putting their children in to the school to meet their needs - but the perception is of Eton children who are extremely wealthy , but this really is few and far between from the reality on the school playground.

100%. They could 2x the fees and we would comfortably pay it.

At my kids’ private school in London, I’ve heard that more than half the fees are paid by grandparents who pay the cash as part of IHT planning. These people (and the internationals) will continue to pay and there’ll be less IHT for the state. Meanwhile high earning, dual income parents are stuffing their pensions, buying second homes and doing it as tax efficiently as possible.

labour are 🤡

@RunningThroughMyHead and again, the majority of parents at independent schools are not “super rich”. Some of them are even on universal credit. Yeah. Mind blowing isn’t it.

Many will come from the shrinking private sector. And our immigration is at what half a million net? If we can creak along with over 100,000 NHS nurse vacancies, I think less than 6,000 teacher vacancies won’t be much faff.

Overseas. There'll be huge recruitment drives abroad.

That's how they keep the NHS running.

@LoremIpsumCici ”poor little rich kids”? Wow, bitter much? I believe in democracy, in personal responsibility and personal choice. No one is responsible for me, but me. So I do not waste my time being jealous or envious of what other people have got. That’s democracy. Some people have more, some people have less and the frankly awful narrative on here that people with more are “lucky” or “privileged” or any other shite you want to make up, doesn’t account for people like me and DH. Who came from far far less, but made it work, without fostering some massive resentment to those with “more”.