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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

This global Microsoft Outage

496 replies

SSpratt · 19/07/2024 09:10

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cnk4jdwp49et

Any worries? It is chaos out there by the look of the news.

My experience is that I’m not able to work today and had trouble using my debit card this morning. The transaction eventually went through but it’s not showing on my account.

Planes grounded as mass worldwide IT outage hits airlines, media and banks

The cause of the outage is unclear - but Microsoft says it's taking "mitigation issues".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cnk4jdwp49et

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
EBearhug · 20/07/2024 09:59

having your choice of entertainment and news dictated by whichever magnates control streaming services.

Some of that us surely just a different medium? In my childhood, people had a choice of 3 TV channels, and nothing at all for quite a few hours. At the library, I had a great choice of books, but it was ultimately limited by whoever controlled the acquisitions budget (or my ability to pay for an inter library lian request.) Films were whichever ones the 2 screen cinema in town chose to play, and we knew about them either by the boards outside or the local paper. News has always been at the mercy of your newspaper or radio or TV news editor. For many of these things, we have a far greater choice of options with the internet than we did pre-internet.

cherrygarden · 20/07/2024 10:01

What I don’t miss about cash is the times I lost my wallet and never got my money back. Or got pickpocketed. Then the money was just gone..

I once found a wallet with a lot of cash, gave it to the police but never even got a thank you.

Sethera · 20/07/2024 10:10

cherrygarden · 20/07/2024 10:01

What I don’t miss about cash is the times I lost my wallet and never got my money back. Or got pickpocketed. Then the money was just gone..

I once found a wallet with a lot of cash, gave it to the police but never even got a thank you.

I would rather lose cash in my wallet than be subject to digital fraud - you might lose £100, say, but then it's done whereas if criminals get access digitally to your finances you might lose your life savings, have credit taken out in your name and so on. It's true that unless you have been grossly negligent you will probably get the money back in the end, but identity theft can dog people for years. Rather just write off £100 or however much it was (likely less unless I was literally on my way back from an ATM).

notimagain · 20/07/2024 10:48

Apparently the US has been less affected because when the issue started, a lot of PCs were switched off and didn't get the relevant update which would have been rolled out at a scheduled time (probably midnight) in addition to Microsoft having time to fix the issue.

From the air transport side of things of you look at the stats that are in the public domain already it does look like the airlines/airports most affected (in terms of percentage of scheduled flights either delayed or cancelled) were in the US, not the Far East or Australasia.

Not sure when the problem first kicked off in the States but a lot of back office functions and activities are geared to UTC, not local time.

taxguru · 20/07/2024 12:13

Itsjustmeheretoday · 20/07/2024 09:26

It goes to show how dependent we are on technology and how screwed we are if something goes wrong. Forget a nuclear bomb, or a pandemic this is the real issue

An even bigger issue is security of power supplies. Without electricity, you can't even buy your shopping or fill your car with petrol. Supermarkets generally close during power cuts, because there's no power for heating/lighting/ventilation/security/fridges, and because the tills don't work for scanning barcodes. So having cash wouldn't help you!

The entire World needs better infrastructure, BOTH to keep computer systems working AND to keep electricity flowing.

taxguru · 20/07/2024 12:22

Sethera · 20/07/2024 10:10

I would rather lose cash in my wallet than be subject to digital fraud - you might lose £100, say, but then it's done whereas if criminals get access digitally to your finances you might lose your life savings, have credit taken out in your name and so on. It's true that unless you have been grossly negligent you will probably get the money back in the end, but identity theft can dog people for years. Rather just write off £100 or however much it was (likely less unless I was literally on my way back from an ATM).

Complex digital fraud is far rarer than thefts/loss of cash. Pretty basic precautions can be applied at user level to massively reduce risks of digital fraud.

Fraudsters were happily cloning credit cards or applying for credit/store cards in someone else's name for a few decades now, and none of that is "digital" fraud - it was plain old fashioned fraud. Add in traditional con-men - the kind who'd charge your granny £10k to fix a cracked roof tile or £15k to do a shoddy job of re-tarmacing their drive. To be sure!

If you've got a standard anti-virus software on your devices, don't write down your PIN numbers/passwords, and don't fall for the online scams where people pretend to be your son whose lost his phone and needs £100, or someone pretends to be a famous filmstar tricking you into believing they want to marry you, or the old Nigerian scam of a rich Prince needing to launder some money through your bank account! Set up banking apps which not only require a password, but also "ping" your mobile with an authentication code AND require either a fingerprint or facial recognation.

Also sensible is to spread your savings over several banks, not just one, so even if a fraudster got your banking details for Santander, the most you'd lose is the Santander balances, not those for Halifax, etc.

Re debit cards, you can set your own limits with most apps for contactless transactions, or even ask the bank for a card that won't do contactless, if you're worried about someone stealing a card and buying lots of small items without needing a PIN number.

I'd maintain that you were more likely at risk of fraud or theft in the old days and that all the modern software/apps, alongside anti virus software AND common sense, and you're safer than ever.

taxguru · 20/07/2024 12:31

RedToothBrush · 20/07/2024 09:51

And the idea of the infallibility of a computer system where nothing can be changed if information is incorrect on it. The whole computer says no problem.

We are worried about AI but actually the underlying nuts and bolts of systems we already have are more problematic. Many are patched up and carry on. Or there's the risk of corruption or mistakes when you transfer data from an old system to a new one.

We are overestimating the ability of system a lot of the time.

A lot of the problems ARE the old fashioned paper based systems.

There's a lot of problems with state pension entitlements based on historic national insurance payment records. I see it very regularly with my work.

People are coming up to retirement, and getting one hell of a shock when they don't have enough "years" on their record because there's no record of them working full time since they were 18 back in the 50s and 60s. That's nothing to do with modern computer systems. Such people have one hell of a battle to try to prove to HMRC that they were working and paying NIC for all the missing years.

Look at the Windrush scandal, again, lack of paper records for when people arrived which made it difficult for them in later years.

I remember around 30-40 years ago, our GP surgery had a major fire and all patient records were lost either due to fire or water (in the days they had a little brown envelope with paperwork stuffed in). It took them a lot of time and effort to reconstruct even the basic data. No one would even have suggested that they have a second copy of everything kept offsite back then!

The reality is that NO filing system is infallible, whether paper nor computerised. Something like a fire or flood will destroy paper records and there's no backup. At least with computers, "outages" are usually short term and temporary, backups are usually available, even if only partial or from a date a bit earlier than would have been better, i.e. weekly rather than daily, so most data is restorable easily leaving few "gaps" to back fill.

I'd far rather have computer systems, properly administered and backed up, than paper systems any day!

cherrygarden · 20/07/2024 12:44

taxguru · 20/07/2024 12:22

Complex digital fraud is far rarer than thefts/loss of cash. Pretty basic precautions can be applied at user level to massively reduce risks of digital fraud.

Fraudsters were happily cloning credit cards or applying for credit/store cards in someone else's name for a few decades now, and none of that is "digital" fraud - it was plain old fashioned fraud. Add in traditional con-men - the kind who'd charge your granny £10k to fix a cracked roof tile or £15k to do a shoddy job of re-tarmacing their drive. To be sure!

If you've got a standard anti-virus software on your devices, don't write down your PIN numbers/passwords, and don't fall for the online scams where people pretend to be your son whose lost his phone and needs £100, or someone pretends to be a famous filmstar tricking you into believing they want to marry you, or the old Nigerian scam of a rich Prince needing to launder some money through your bank account! Set up banking apps which not only require a password, but also "ping" your mobile with an authentication code AND require either a fingerprint or facial recognation.

Also sensible is to spread your savings over several banks, not just one, so even if a fraudster got your banking details for Santander, the most you'd lose is the Santander balances, not those for Halifax, etc.

Re debit cards, you can set your own limits with most apps for contactless transactions, or even ask the bank for a card that won't do contactless, if you're worried about someone stealing a card and buying lots of small items without needing a PIN number.

I'd maintain that you were more likely at risk of fraud or theft in the old days and that all the modern software/apps, alongside anti virus software AND common sense, and you're safer than ever.

Agree. But scammers always up their game, and will find new ways to get us to part with our money cash or in the bank.

Itsjustmeheretoday · 20/07/2024 12:50

Sethera · 20/07/2024 09:38

Yes - why can't more people see this? They sleepwalk into a cashless, digital society and don't realise the extent to which they are surrendering themselves to things outside their control. Not just the risk of global outages, but having your life messed up by 'computer says no' cock-ups, having your choice of entertainment and news dictated by whichever magnates control streaming services.

Sleepwalking is absolutely right

taxguru · 20/07/2024 13:13

Itsjustmeheretoday · 20/07/2024 12:50

Sleepwalking is absolutely right

Yes, in a way, but it's up to individuals to protect themselves and mitigate risks. Have several different bank/savings accounts and keep cards in different places, so you always have options if one channel fails for whatever reason. I.e. I always ensure I have two cards with me, one being a mastercard and the other a visa, as sometimes one of the systems is down whilst the other still works.

People who stuff cash under their mattresses are just as much at risk as someone who puts all their savings in one bank account. In fact more risk, as at least if your card gets cloned or someone empties your bank account, you have a chance of recovering the money as long as you've not been negligent. If your house is broken into and some scrotes find your cash, of if it burns down, you're cash is gone forever!

Back a few decades, if your building society passbook got lost, stolen or damaged, you couldn't just trot down to the building society and withdraw the money. It may not have been computerised, but the counter staff would certainly have said "no", and you'd have had to go through their process of reporting the loss/theft, getting a new passbook issued, etc., which wouldn't have been immediate!

I still maintain that we have more control today to control and mitigate our risks. People who negligently write passwords in books, or don't set up fingerprints or facial recognition on their smartphones are negligent and may well struggle to get recompense if they are conned or subject to theft/fraud.

I think things were more dodgy in the old days when you could present a cheque or passbook at the bank counter, just sign someone else's name (pretty easy to practice, when their signature was often in the front of the passbook or the back of the cheque guarantee card) and walk out with a pocket load of cash!

JackGrealishsCalves · 20/07/2024 14:52

muggart · 19/07/2024 09:17

Could this be a cyber attack? That's a dcary thought.

No, they've already said it was a security upgrade patch (very common thing) performed by a third party. It clearly wasn't thoroughly tested before it was put live though (as an ex IT QA / tester I can say that 😅).
Someone is gonna get sacked though

scalt · 20/07/2024 15:56

Sethera · 20/07/2024 09:38

Yes - why can't more people see this? They sleepwalk into a cashless, digital society and don't realise the extent to which they are surrendering themselves to things outside their control. Not just the risk of global outages, but having your life messed up by 'computer says no' cock-ups, having your choice of entertainment and news dictated by whichever magnates control streaming services.

Can you scream this louder, please?

Earlier this year, I visited a zoo which had signs everywhere saying “we are cashless”. The staff at the counter looked sheepish, and said “actually, we can only take cash today, our internet is down”. I bet they lost money from people who did not have cash with them. This is a tiny example of how the dystopian “cashless society” can go very, very wrong.

cherrygarden · 20/07/2024 16:20

scalt · 20/07/2024 15:56

Can you scream this louder, please?

Earlier this year, I visited a zoo which had signs everywhere saying “we are cashless”. The staff at the counter looked sheepish, and said “actually, we can only take cash today, our internet is down”. I bet they lost money from people who did not have cash with them. This is a tiny example of how the dystopian “cashless society” can go very, very wrong.

Maybe they didn’t want to risk their staff being robbed for cash.

Grammarnut · 20/07/2024 16:36

taxguru · 20/07/2024 13:13

Yes, in a way, but it's up to individuals to protect themselves and mitigate risks. Have several different bank/savings accounts and keep cards in different places, so you always have options if one channel fails for whatever reason. I.e. I always ensure I have two cards with me, one being a mastercard and the other a visa, as sometimes one of the systems is down whilst the other still works.

People who stuff cash under their mattresses are just as much at risk as someone who puts all their savings in one bank account. In fact more risk, as at least if your card gets cloned or someone empties your bank account, you have a chance of recovering the money as long as you've not been negligent. If your house is broken into and some scrotes find your cash, of if it burns down, you're cash is gone forever!

Back a few decades, if your building society passbook got lost, stolen or damaged, you couldn't just trot down to the building society and withdraw the money. It may not have been computerised, but the counter staff would certainly have said "no", and you'd have had to go through their process of reporting the loss/theft, getting a new passbook issued, etc., which wouldn't have been immediate!

I still maintain that we have more control today to control and mitigate our risks. People who negligently write passwords in books, or don't set up fingerprints or facial recognition on their smartphones are negligent and may well struggle to get recompense if they are conned or subject to theft/fraud.

I think things were more dodgy in the old days when you could present a cheque or passbook at the bank counter, just sign someone else's name (pretty easy to practice, when their signature was often in the front of the passbook or the back of the cheque guarantee card) and walk out with a pocket load of cash!

Edited

There were cash withdrawal limits. Also, a good chance if in a bank near your home then the cashiers would recognise you. The cashiers in my building society (next town) recognise me even now, and I don't go in often.

PotatoFan · 20/07/2024 17:13

OrwellianTimes · 19/07/2024 10:54

The U.K. government has issued no advice like that. As ever, Sweden is far more sensible.

The fact still remains that a cashless society is a bad idea, and will hurt the most vulnerable in society.

The UK government has issued advice to all households to prepare an emergency kit containing food and water amongst other things. See the get emergency supplies section

https://prepare.campaign.gov.uk/get-prepared-for-emergencies/

Get prepared for emergencies

https://prepare.campaign.gov.uk/get-prepared-for-emergencies

Getonwitit · 20/07/2024 19:35

cherrygarden · 20/07/2024 10:01

What I don’t miss about cash is the times I lost my wallet and never got my money back. Or got pickpocketed. Then the money was just gone..

I once found a wallet with a lot of cash, gave it to the police but never even got a thank you.

How many times have you lost your wallet or had it stolen ? Not once is nearly 45 years of carrying a purse i have never lost it or had it stolen. Maybe you need to be a bit more careful.

PetuniaT · 20/07/2024 19:49

I've not been able to get a GP or dentist appointment. So nothing new there.

cherrygarden · 20/07/2024 20:03

Getonwitit · 20/07/2024 19:35

How many times have you lost your wallet or had it stolen ? Not once is nearly 45 years of carrying a purse i have never lost it or had it stolen. Maybe you need to be a bit more careful.

Ok good for you. Haven’t had a wallet for more than 20 years and haven’t missed having one either. Or the bacteria on the money. But yeah, even if it is only a couple of times due to being pickpocked travelling and on London tube it’s still money you don’t get back. I have found other people’s wallets though quite a few times.

It’s not something that has happened since paying by card or mobile so I will stick to that for now.

ErinBell01 · 20/07/2024 20:08

Shreddedpolitics · 19/07/2024 09:15

Not worried in the slightest. Everything seems to be working here.

You might not be now but what happens the next time?

S0livagant · 20/07/2024 20:11

Getonwitit · 20/07/2024 19:35

How many times have you lost your wallet or had it stolen ? Not once is nearly 45 years of carrying a purse i have never lost it or had it stolen. Maybe you need to be a bit more careful.

I've never lost my wallet or phone or had it stolen either. I carry notes in my phone and coins in my pocket. I know family and friends who have lost things while drunk though.

PetuniaT · 20/07/2024 20:37

IncompleteSenten · 19/07/2024 09:11

It shows the need for back up plans and procedures doesn't it?

The back-up plans and procedures have been shown to have worked. What was missing was proper testing of the update before it was released..

PetuniaT · 20/07/2024 20:39

ErinBell01 · 20/07/2024 20:08

You might not be now but what happens the next time?

Especially now that the much vaunted AI has learned what happens when the Cloud goes down! Domination of humans is not far away,

Itsjustmeheretoday · 20/07/2024 21:10

taxguru · 20/07/2024 13:13

Yes, in a way, but it's up to individuals to protect themselves and mitigate risks. Have several different bank/savings accounts and keep cards in different places, so you always have options if one channel fails for whatever reason. I.e. I always ensure I have two cards with me, one being a mastercard and the other a visa, as sometimes one of the systems is down whilst the other still works.

People who stuff cash under their mattresses are just as much at risk as someone who puts all their savings in one bank account. In fact more risk, as at least if your card gets cloned or someone empties your bank account, you have a chance of recovering the money as long as you've not been negligent. If your house is broken into and some scrotes find your cash, of if it burns down, you're cash is gone forever!

Back a few decades, if your building society passbook got lost, stolen or damaged, you couldn't just trot down to the building society and withdraw the money. It may not have been computerised, but the counter staff would certainly have said "no", and you'd have had to go through their process of reporting the loss/theft, getting a new passbook issued, etc., which wouldn't have been immediate!

I still maintain that we have more control today to control and mitigate our risks. People who negligently write passwords in books, or don't set up fingerprints or facial recognition on their smartphones are negligent and may well struggle to get recompense if they are conned or subject to theft/fraud.

I think things were more dodgy in the old days when you could present a cheque or passbook at the bank counter, just sign someone else's name (pretty easy to practice, when their signature was often in the front of the passbook or the back of the cheque guarantee card) and walk out with a pocket load of cash!

Edited

I feel the problem is so much bigger than this as we are so dependent on technology, things literally just grind to a halt. Also, we are losing all those basic skills we used to have so even if society had to rebuild I wonder how effective it would be, by then paper books will have probably be gone too! I noticw now when I do rarely carry cash how the person on the other end is absolutely flustered and unless they have a calculator can't figure out what change to give me!

ForGreyKoala · 20/07/2024 21:47

Scarletrunner · 20/07/2024 06:32

The problem became apparent in NZ and Australia first -they are 9/10 hours ahead of us -and MS then took steps to mitigate the problems -we got off lightly.

I'm in NZ and it was the evening when we first heard about it. I think we probably got off lightly, as by the following morning everything seemed okay - other than for people at airports!