To think the judge was right to throw the book at Just Stop Oil?

[StripedPiggy]

Five Just Stop Oil activists, including leader & XR founder Roger Hallam have been sentenced to up to 5 years in jail for blocking the M25 & other main roads.
Their intention was to cause gridlock on roads in the South East. The disruption they caused resulted in people missing medical appointments, flights & business meetings.

Well done to that judge. The criminal justice system is right to pass serious sentences on these fanatics which will act as a strong deterrent to others who might try to cause mass disruption, and put people’s lives in danger, to further a political agenda, whatever it might be.

Blocking someone rushing to see a dying relative for the last time? Or to get a chemotherapy appointment?

YABU. All but the most obtuse of us can see that climate change is a serious issue. But being passionate about a cause doesn't entitle you to take the law into your hands, to the detriment of others. Taking an alternative political scenario -if Reform were to block RNLI stations because they believe they should not go the rescue of migrant boats - would anyone here be saying prison is too harsh because Reform really believe in what they're doing?

🫶🏻🫶🏻

It’s not the fact that they believe in what they are doing that arguably justifies anything! Their convictions are neither here nor there. It’s the fact that they are in fact completely correct that the impact of climate disaster will be utterly devastating on us all. Thats why it was bonkers to me that the judge said that evidence about climate change couldn’t be taken into account?

But lots of other people say that it isn’t a fact that the impact of climate change will be devastating. They say it won’t be that bad and we’ll adapt. Others say it’s too late to do anything so why bother trying. Others say it’s natural and not caused by humans. I’m not saying either view is correct by the way…I don’t know as I’m not a climate scientist or an expert in climate change. I’m just saying there are differences in opinion on it which makes it very difficult for non-experts such as myself to know what to believe.

Circa 99% of climate scientists believe climate change is manmade, and that effects will be devastating if we don't stop mining fossil fuels.
I'd recommend listening to the 99% rather than the vocal 1% of conspiracy theorists who deny the science.

@Grumpy12345

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2021/oct/19/case-closed-999-of-scientists-agree-climate-emergency-caused-by-humans

It's undeniable. Sorry, this article is three years old. But, it's a good article.
Climate change deniers are actually very dangerous, and they're putting all life on Earth at risk. Please ignore them! They're multiple times more dangerous than anti-vaxxers, or any other type of conspiracy theorists.
Climate change is manmade, real and devastating. I only wish it was not so 😔

Being correct still doesn't give people the right to block an ambulance.

The evidence of climate change couldn't be taken into account because the trial was not about climate change. It was about the law, and the group breaking the law. Therefore, the reasons they did so is irrelevant.

Thank you, this is helpful. I’ll have a read.

The other thing I find difficult is there are so many different opinions on what we need to do about it. For example, some people say we should switch to electric cars whilst others say electric cars are just as damaging as petrol. People say we should fly less but they don’t quantity how much less. E.g should it be banned completely, should one flight per year per person be enough? Others say we should stop eating meat and dairy. I’m happy to make changes but i don’t know which will have the biggest impact and there doesn’t seem to be a consensus.

People were missing medical appointments, flights etc. They’ve blocked ambulances with patients in them needing critical care. They’ve vandalised art work. It’s not just ‘blocking traffic’. They’re weird, crazy vandals who need to be stopped. Look at the bigger picture.

You have my empathy. Trying to be ethical is a minefield!
I do think most people want to do the right thing, but we're all caught up in a system, that doesn't always make it easy.
I'm a vegan, and do feel that's one of the best things we can do. But, to be honest, in my case, that's more due to animal rights than the environment.
Re other lifestyle changes, I agree it's very confusing. We need really clear guidance I think.
The onus is mostly on governments and industry to stop mining and using fossil fuels. All kind of futile till that happens. But, we can do our little bit too.

I understand the logic , I just don’t think it looks anything like justice. Surely the circumstances within which they they broke the law is relevant to their trial; If they are not then there is a problem with the law/ justice system.

They have actually done enormous damage to the cause imo. I’m all for protests and causing problems eg scaling the Tower of London and unfurling a banner, beaming a message on the House of Commons, interrupting speeches at televised awards show - annoying but not detrimental to life. Blocking the roads so ambulances can’t pass is horrible and unnecessary.

Very ironic you’re telling me to look at the bigger picture. The bigger picture here is about climate change.

If anyone did miss funerals or doctors appointments etc then that’s not great, obviously, but a) people do miss things for all sorts of delays all the time - there is no guarantee there wouldn’t have been an accident or issue that could have also delayed them and b) people will be dying in their millions soon enough from climate change if we don’t do something about it.

I also am already vegan for animal rights reasons, at least I’ve got that one ticked off. I have a car but walk and cycle as much as I can because it enjoy it. That ticks another box. But yes it is a minefield knowing what else I should be doing. I think I’d find it difficult to give up flying a couple of times a year as I do love travelling.

Is there any evidence that anyone missed anything life or death?

Im not saying it didn’t happen but as far as I can see people keep saying about these awful outcomes but did they actually happen or are they just hypothetical?

You're right, Tandora. Circumstances do matter, and given a chance, juries do acquit on grounds of evidence pertaining to conscientious objection, and perceived greater harm in the face of inaction ‐see jury acquittals for the Colston Four and Shell Seven, for instance, setting important legal precedence.
These JSO protestors were prevented from presenting a climate defense for this reason.

The personal cost - hospital appointments, blood couriers, funerals etc - is one thing.

But even if, magically, no person was seriously harmed by this shit, it’s a massive disruption of normal life and business.

Nobody has been able to tell me why bomb hoaxes and cyberattacks are any worse than these dangerous stunts. And anyone saying “but an accident would jam up the roads”… the internet was disrupted recently because of unintended problems; does that make cyberattacks ok?

Of course they got years inside: they put people at risk and fucked up hundreds of thousands of people’s and businesses’ travel and transport.

No cause justifies this. None.

I think people's "bigger pictures" can really vary as we're seeing on this thread. Sometimes they intersect and the cognitive dissonance can be disconcerting. For me, the knowledge that a failing climate will cause immeasurable global suffering informs and colours my perception of almost all other issues; I find it almost impossible to 'unsee' it. But suffering is relative and subjective. More often than not, what we feel we need to do just to get by and keep ourselves and our families fed and housed flies in the face of 'best climate practice'. That's not on us, that's what happens when we live and work within economic structures which prioritise growth. And like Trying and Grumpy have just posted, most people do what they can as individuals to limit their impact on the environment. Some, like CG, feel compelled to take further action.

How do you think those hundreds of thousands of people , their business , travel and transport arrangements are going to fare as a result of climate disaster?

Better than if some tossers had disrupted their travel.

Well a better natural consequence would have been for them to be run over.

It wo6ld have been cheaper for the public purse not to try them or gave them in prison and have the added benefit of having several less people using the planets precious resources. Which given the fect6 the protectors are so very passionate about resource usage, they would surely approve.

Win. Win.

@OttilieKnackered They happened. The impacts were enormous. I re-post my earlier post with a screenshot of the Judge's references during sentencing:
SoreAndTired1 · 24/07/2024 05:36
I haven't RTFT but for those who feel sorry for these hateful, malignant little germs; Her group caused the death of a stroke victim (strokes is a particular situation where every minute counts) in an ambulance that was blocked!

Also someone fighting an aggressive form of cancer missed their appointment at a cancer clinic and had to wait two months for another appointment. That was as good as they were able to get for another appointment.

These people are murderers basically. Maggots. How would YOU feel, if it were your mother who died in that ambulance? Or YOUR mother or daughter or sister who had an aggressive form of cancer, stopped them from attending an important appointment, and then had to wait a further TWO....MONTHS for a new one? Because some middle class to upper class rich and bored ill brought up spoiled brat (and almost all of them are rich or at least middle class, the Cressida creature's father is a director of operas around the UK and she went to an elite private school) blocked your ambulance or cancer transport? Huh? How would you feel? What if it was your daughter who missed her chemo appointment?

I also read the blockage caused two cars to collide, one man had a heart attack in the blockae, and a mother needing to get her sick child to hospital begged and pleaded to be let through. They refused. The leader of this group proudly said he would refuse an ambulance to go through and "feel no guilt". As the daughter of someone who has MS and has a serious lung disease and has had to have CPR in the back of an ambulance and has been clinically dead 3 times, and as someone who is facing breast cancer treatment myself, I don't care how angry or violent I come across on this; these scum either need a bullet to the head or kept isolated from society permanently. She and this group are basically murderers! 4 years for this is not enough! Imo it should be a minimum of 15 years. And murder and manslaughter charges. FFS, 4 years is outrageously pitiful. The (LETHAL) flow on effects from their stunt should at least have them up on manslaughter charges. At the very least.

And Cressida's trashy mother who didn't do her job as a mother and raise her properly, is now whingeing that her daughter will miss her brothers wedding! Oh boo fucking hoo! As the below showed, many others missed funerals due to her stunt, a man missed his father's funeral and said he'd never forgive the group. Others missed weddings. Many are saying they should find the date and address and details of the wedding and stage an impromptu 'Just Stop Oil' blockade near the brother's wedding facility. I bet her family would be screaming if they couldn't make her brother's wedding!

That people feel sorry for these lifeforms from the sewer is maddening. That people actually believe any of them care about the environment, shows how gullible people are. These shallow narcissistic sociopaths don't even actually care about the environment, they never did, that's a cover; they are simply bored little rich kids who can't graffiti or anything lower class like that, so this is how they destroy and damage society without making daddy look too bad. And being part of something, being part of anything, is important to these kids. They don't particularly care what it is. These maggots have no use or worth to society. Removing them and isolating them permanently from civilised society is the safest thing for innocent civilised society and for the environment. Sentencing impact remarks:

There is no defence at all for causing deaths or for causing people to miss cancer appointments. NONE whatsoever. There can never, NEVER be any defence for it.