'Upward' bullying. Is it possible?

[Batmanisaplaceinturkey]

I think I'm being upwardly bullied by someone I manage. Do I need a head shake?
Can't say too much as its outing.
Has anyone else experienced upward bullying?

@TheRoseBear your post is confusing. Do you mean employee rather than employer?

I have been bullied by someone I was supervising in the education sector. It was the worst period of my life. The investigation took two years, going higher and higher. At each stage there was absolutely no evidence against me whatsoever and it was all eventually dismissed, but I never recovered my confidence or equilibrium. I found out during the investigations that she had caused a similar situation before that had escalated so far in was widely reported in the news. She has since gone on to cause other situations at other workplaces that have caused her to be struck off the professional register and she has even spent time in prison for contempt of court. I have never met her other victims but feel for them and sometimes wonder if we should form a support group.

It’s a terrible form of bullying because as the person in charge, you may have fewer allies. It’s much easier as a ‘victim’ to form a support group as people love to complain about those in charge. There is also the shame at ‘allowing’ it to happen to you because as you are supposed to be invulnerable.

I can only echo what others have said, that it’s really important to keep a written record as soon as possible and to talk to people who can actually help you.

I feel for you and wish you luck!

I saw this between a junior colleague who was a white, 50+ man and a manager who was a young-ish (not as young as she looks) Asian woman. He had successfully sued a former employer many moons ago for something or other, so felt emboldened to treat our employer/ managers like shit.

Anyway, this went on for quite a while and a few of us were puzzled why nothing was being done about it, it was really upsetting to watch. Anyway, it turns out she was playing the long game with HR and after keeping their powder dry for a long time it went to tribunal and they got him out. Absolute boss move. He'd been a trouble causer in various ways for years and years, yet it was this unassuming and in some ways marginalised young manager who got him out - delicious!

"
It’s a terrible form of bullying because as the person in charge, you may have fewer allies. It’s much easier as a ‘victim’ to form a support group as people love to complain about those in charge. There is also the shame at ‘allowing’ it to happen to you because as you are supposed to be invulnerable."

This 100 times.

Can you give 1 or 2 examples, I suspect this too but am unsure as it also feels like gaslighting and makes me question my instincts.

Just echoing what other people have said. It happened to me in my early career as a manager. It was a campaign of undermining me and the result was I left and for the next 5 years refused a role managing staff as I thought I was simply not very good at it. It was only after the manager who I had worked for for that 5 years really sat me down and talked me through it that I had the courage to manage a small team of 3. 20 years later my team is a little bigger at 17 but I suffer terribly from imposter syndrome.
I wish I had said something before leaving but like you I felt people would see a weakness in me. However twenty years on I would say you should speak up as your employer has a duty of care to you too.
Thinking about the wording you can use can focus on. Talking in terms of subversive behaviour, creating drama and tension that impacts on others as well as you,
seems to me there is clearly unprofessional behaviour going on here that is played out for people to see - or is it just in your company? if this person really is making so many mistakes then sticking them on a performance plan is surely the next step?
Does the organisation have values they adhere to? If so is this person acting against them? I tend to find that is a clear peg to hook HR on.
I hope this sorts itself out for you. I wish I had taken it further. The person who did it to me is now a manager of the small team I left and is making an absolutely horrendous job of it. I pity their poor team members.

"It’s a terrible form of bullying because as the person in charge, you may have fewer allies. "

I don't understand this. The reason why the usual type of bullying is awful is because management usually sides with the hierarchy. Few big bosses will take the side of the underling, but someone being managed by a subordinate has many more options and is not powerless.

but someone being managed by a subordinate has many more options and is not powerless.

But that is not really it, @Gwenhwyfar . You only have options if you have decent back up - which not all managers do. In my case, my direct manager was on my side but did fuck all to help. The most useful thing she did was watch on while I confronted my subordinate so that the staff member could not lie about what I said and how I said it. Her manager used my subordinates complaints about me as 'evidence' for my shortcomings for quite a while - until I pointed out I had grounds for disciplinary against my staff member and did not appreciate her parroting the same nonsense.

The other issues are that often the person bullying has the management in their pocket.
Mine got away with it because my line manager was weak and the rest thought that they were brilliant mainly due to the amount of sucking up that they did.

I don’t think is rare at all. Seen it happen a few times

Rife in universities among staff (could be different for faculty). I had a big management position in admin in a university (I was director of a unit). It was absolutely rife yet absolutely no support or route. If I’d have behaved in a similar way, as director, I’d have been fired. But this person got away with it.

I got out and searched for a position which does not include managing anyone, ever!

So sorry you are going through this.
Do not be gaslit that it isn’t happening. Keep everything in writing. Get help!

@Gwenhwyfar there are always fewer managers than managed. People being managed tend to form a bond, often an ‘us against them’ type of bond. This can mean that as a manager you can be isolated with fewer allies than an employee. This is compounded by the fact that it’s shameful to admit to anyone higher up that you can’t cope with the people you are managing so it is often suffered in silence. Higher management absolutely do not always support management, I have seen that many times over.

I'm really sorry to hear this...I'm a lecturer and I've always encouraged other people into working at universities. Campuses are so big, I guess it's hard to know what might be going on in other departments and that some of them may be toxic. I'll definitely nose around now before sending vacancies peoples way!

I have an idea of what you mean...I had a terrible experience as a HOD in a school with one of the finance admins. Gaslighting. Denying verbal conversations took place. Telling me I provided the wrong DOB and NI number for my tax form when I was a new starter and the reason I hadn't been paid was because I'd passed on all the incorrect details. Agreeing on budgets for equipment,
rewards parties or trips then back tracking on the DAY by saying I never asked for authorisation in the first place, forcing orders to be cancelled. I think she had some sort of personality disorder. She was sociopathic and had no conscience.

I would say best route is to speak to your manager to let them know you are putting her on a Performance Improvement Plan and that you will be working with them and HR to get her performance up to standard, or her out, whichever it may be.

Then do it. A PPE is very uncomfortable for the employee as it shines light on all the performance issues, she will likely leave because of it.

Just remain totally professional, say nothing to anyone asides from your manager and HR, and go through the process. Don’t give up your job because of one asshat - strength!

Sure! But very young people can be great at managing. I went back to work in a new field at 58. As a licensed clinical therapist. My manager was late twenties. She was incredible! Her first job was at a huge chain restaurant as waitress then “hostess” doing the seating. She found working as manager in a community health clinic specializing in people with psychotic disorders and managing the clinical staff a doddle. She was extremely talented and taught me a lot about how to manage work issues (not patients but other staff.

"People being managed tend to form a bond, often an ‘us against them’ type of bond. "

Yes, but this is not really powerful is it? I mean, staff members gather to complain about the bosses, but nobody will actually stand up to them. They have all the power.
I know that if I ever tried to bully my boss, I'd just be sacked.
I can imagine that maybe in very large organisations your direct boss doesn't have the power to sack you, but the manager always has an advantage over someone on the bottom of the pile.

I appreciate the point about being ashamed to admit it, a bit like men who are victims of domestic violence.

"Rife in universities among staff (could be different for faculty). I had a big management position in admin in a university (I was director of a unit)."

I didn't know that lecturers aren't considered staff at universities, but I do think the university most local to me a few years ago was incredibly toxic with long hours and bullying being rife (top down).

The most common way I've seen junior staff bully managers is through the grievance procedure, especially in cases where HR is shit (not uncommon in public sector organisations). The process is effectively the punishment, so it's a particularly effective way of bullying managers, even if the grievance isn't upheld.

I was fortunate to work for an organisation that had four potential outcomes for grievances:

Grievance upheld.

Grievance dismissed - mediation or other action recommended.

Grievance dismissed - no further action.

Grievance dismissed - vexatious.

As disciplinary action against the complainant could follow outcome number 4, union reps usually advised them to withdraw grievances that had little prospect of success. This made it much harder for staff to use the process to bully their managers.

I know that if I ever tried to bully my boss, I'd just be sacked.

What kind of organisation do you work for? Not a well-managed one, I'm guessing. What would happen if you didn't like something your boss had reasonably asked you to do and lodged a grievance? Maybe you'd invent a complaint that s/he'd expected you to do extra hours and told you you'd be sacked if you didn't. Or that s/he'd said something inappropriate or touched you inappropriately? A he-said-she-said situation. You can't be sacked for raising a grievance: that would be discrimination. Once the grievance has been heard you might be sacked if it was found to be vexatious, but until the grievance has been heard ( sometimes months) you've got your boss worried.

Now imagine that while the situation is investigated you persuade a couple of your colleagues that your complaint is genuine and that your boss has been bullying you for ages. Perhaps your colleagues get huffy with your boss and maybe they come up with a few things the boss has said and done over the last few years that sound dodgy and support your claim.

It's very difficult for someone to prove that something didn't happen. So for a few weeks, at least, the boss is under pressure and being looked at suspiciously — and maybe there are other people in the business at boss level who have an axe to grind and join in the witch-hunt. Office politics can get very messy. And before you know it the boss is really embarrassed at how s/he's feeling bullied and goes off with stress, or starts looking for other jobs.

It sounds far-fetched but in an earlier life as a social worker I worked with someone who lodged a grievance every time she was asked to do something she didn't want to do and management stopped asking her to do much at all because they felt so nervous of her.

This isn’t a far fetched situation. I worked in the same large public sector or for 25 years and saw similar situations several times. It was really difficult to fire employees and at least one other manager (apart from me) was bullied by the people they were supervising.

I work in a country where employees have good rights and in an organisation where they do too. However, some of my bosses in the past have been the owners so obviously there would have been nobody with whom to raise a grievance. Where I am now, there is one HR person and she would just ask what happened and if my boss's behaviour was normal, nothing would happen. I'm just shocked because the amount of power he has compared to me is huge.

Apologies. It made sense in my head! My employer did not support me with someone I was trying to line manage and who was bullying me. They allowed it to continue.

This happened to me.

She wrote letters about me, declaring me to be mentally unfit and left them on the desks of my senior management team. When I approached HR I was told to ignore it.

A month later she started a grievance procedure against me and I was investigated for bullying and harassment. Worst 9 months of my work life. The outcome of the investigation was “no case to answer”.

Undermining and isolating someone is a form of bullying and very hard to prove.

The withholding knowledge is another one.

I’ve experienced this and often the person responsible can appear well liked and popular with others, which adds to the frustration.

Start documenting everything and meantime kill them with kindness would be my advice.

If challenged they will play the victim, of course.

Never speak about them to anyone other than your manager and HR or you’ll be accused of being the bully!

Don’t give them the satisfaction of leaving a job you otherwise like - it’s exactly what they are wanting.

Another one who has experienced it. An older woman (who was new to the profession, not very good but thought she was amazing and incredibly bitter) rallied the younger team members and lied/manipulated them until they were mostly either silent or against me. It was awful. I left, got a job without responsibility and am in a really lovely, supportive department who really value me. I’ve just had a promotion that means I’m on £3k more than my last job but no people management. Sending strength OP, remember it’s them not you.