'Upward' bullying. Is it possible?

[Batmanisaplaceinturkey]

I think I'm being upwardly bullied by someone I manage. Do I need a head shake?
Can't say too much as its outing.
Has anyone else experienced upward bullying?

Yes, happened to me years ago. A woman in my department who wasn't doing her job and who had been a problem for YEARS that no one had dealt with. I tried to deal with it nicely (I was Head of Department - I'm an academic and HoD is a post that revolves around the senior members of the department). Kept the Dean and HR up to date. When she turned to bullying me - she is a union rep, she loves a fight - the dirtier the better - her husband is an employment lawyer, then the Dean and HR backed away at a rate of knots. I was utterly abandoned. I got very very ill indeed. Dreadful. Sending to you because it isn't easy.

I once worked in the CEO department of a very major government organisation. Our CEO was a charming man who was also totally devoted to his work and a little eccentric. He came from a fundamentalist Christian background and didn't own a TV although he actually spent most of his time at work.He would never have told us this detail but it was well known as were his families religious views.
He deliberately took the long route round to get to his office and seemed to deliberately want to acknowledge all his staff in the morning.A colleague would lay in wait for him, ask him if he'd watched Love Island, talent programmes etc .He would delicately say he hasn't, had she watched them/enjoyed them etc.She would then tell him the most salacious parts and when he tried to move on she'd ask if he'd been to the pub, had a big weekend etc.
It was really cruel and cringy, also such a strange form of bullying

It has happened to me. Awful and the hardest work situation I have ever had to handle.

yes It happened to me years ago when I got a promotion which another member of staff, older than me, thought was her job.
She was a total bitch. Utter nasty witch about it. Set some of her mates on me too.
Ultimately I left as I didn't want to have to deal with her anymore and knew that the problem would never be fixed. The only fix for me was never having to work with her again. I never looked back!

I suppose it can and I've heard of it. I'd like an explanation of how though.
What I have seen more of though is bullies who try to turn the story around by claiming they are the ones being bullied by their subordinates, for example, being signed off and claiming the atmosphere in the team caused it.

Yes, that was really stupid.

Yes, that was really stupid.

So how do management trainees gain experience if they're not allowed to manage under supervision? The PP was clear that she was a management trainee, not a manager.

So many older managers took up their positions in the days when there was little specialist managerial training and where they just made it up as they went along. I know — I've been managed by people like that, we probably all have. People who had absolutely no idea how to get the best of their team, had favourites, behaved in sexist or prejudiced ways, communicated unprofessionally...

It's bizarre to argue that someone who's done a degree in management — possibly with a year spent in industry — could be very much worse than someone who'd ascended into management with no qualifications and no training because they were the next in line in the department.

"The PP was clear that she was a management trainee, not a manager."

I understood that they made her the manager of a team.

"someone who's done a degree in management — possibly with a year spent in industry — could be very much worse than someone who'd ascended into management with no qualifications and no training"

But with experience. I'm not saying that experience trumps everything otherwise we'd just have the oldest staff member at the top of the chain, but you need to have SOME experience to be telling other people what to do.

Speaking from experience, yes it happens. My employer was disorganised and spineless and did nothing to support me despite years of very poor performance from her and lots of evidence.

She lied and bad mouthed me to anyone who would listen for years, would openly shout at me and for years refused to do large parts of her job.

My only advice is to read up on threads on here and online about HR and line management. There are some websites that offer advice on upward bullying. Also, check everyone in your team has a job description they can be held to.

Good management is as much about persuading and leading people as telling them what to do. And also approaching the job with a professional mindset. Too many managers even now have experience of the work but don't bring professionalism. My last-but-one manager had risen internally and ran an all-male clique who took Friday afternoons off down the pub. He promoted from within that male clique. He was terrified of, and antagonistic towards, older experienced female employees like me. I left that company with a year's salary pay-out after he put it in writing that although I was the best person for a new position being created in the department, he was giving it to Dave (one of this clique) because Dave had just got married and his wife was pregnant and they'd need the extra money more than I would. That wasn't the 1950s, that was 11 years ago.

I'd far rather have had a professional 22-year-old planning a career in management in charge.

"I'd far rather have had a professional 22-year-old planning a career in management in charge."

You say that now, but the reality might be different. And quite often management does include telling people what to do, sometimes even how to do it.
Your old manager was a twat and I'm not convinced a management course would have stopped him being one.

Yes. Dh has had it recently. It's horrible. Luckily he went to manager above him and doesn't manage the person now.

Yes it happened to me when I inherited a team that was constantly working against me. The previous manager went onto a new role before I started and I inherited a team that was no different to a sack of shit and in the end I left. They still socialise with the previous manager and as you can imagine all the gossip that happened whilst I was there being reported back to the previous manager with all the WhatsApp groups that were created for them to gossip. After I left though, their bitchy cliquey kingdom all fell apart and one by one off they went with grievances issued.

Yes, it happened to me and the SLT of the school did nothing to stop it as he was one of their darlings.

As a previous poster stated its rife in schools.

Some of these responses are awful -_- blaming someone's age for the way they're being treated at work is really grim behaviour.

"Management trainees" shouldn't be a thing. You can't train to be a manager straight out of university. Being a good manager isn't something you just learn. It comes with maturity, workplace experience, life experience, confidence.

Any firm that thinks you can place a 22 year old into an experienced team as a "manager", despite lack of experience, doesn't grasp management. And doesn't understand the complex makeup of experienced teams. Being a graduate, and presumably academic, doesn't mean you'll make a good manager.

25-30, maybe, but 22 is way too young and totally insensitive to a team of older, more experienced workers who could probably manage the team much better if they had the support to develop internally.

I work with a few colleagues in their early 20s. Very bright and technically able, but not mature enough to handle complex sensitive situations.

What do you look out for?

Blimey. What do you plan to do OP?

My role entails investigating allegations of bullying and harassment (amongst other things) and in my experience, upward bullying is actually more common than the other way around!

It happened to me. She decimated my team and made me have a breakdown at a time when my dad was being treated for cancer. I left the job and even the industry.

I'm assessing my options. I've been offered a job interview somewhere else but it's a pay cut so not keen.
I feel like my manager will see me as weak if I mention the B word.

I am not sure I would call it bullying when discussing it with a manager - I would be more likely to say I had concerns about what seems to be an entrenched pattern of behavior which seems to indicate a lack of respect for the management structure of the company and is manifesting in ways which are incompatible with company values and policies.

Also have seen the younger manager older woman dynamic here
In my case I was way more experienced and it appeared to be pure jealousy. Left the situation because I could but still absolutely horrible.

Btw I was 40 and the other party 60 or so, so nothing to do with massive immaturity.

OP, you like working for this organisation and you are valued there — so please don't resign for something that pays less. Turn this into a useful learning experience.

I'd follow @Atethehalloweenchocs advice. I might go to HR and ask for advice on procedures and also ask if there are training opportunities to help hone your management skills.

Your manager hasn't helped things by failing to support you in applying company policies. It might be worthwhile having one more meeting with them, making it clear that this is a serious issue for you. If they exist, take new examples of the employee's unhelpful behaviour. Please don't start thinking that this is all about or down to you. It sounds as if your manager hasn't done all they could here. There should be strategies in place to manage people like the employee you are dealing with. You might want to ask whether the company would arrange for you to have some management training, to make you more efficient at your job (and have something else to add to your CV...)

If, after pursuing this further, there is no hope of positive outcome, that's the time to look for other, better-paid work elsewhere. Good luck.

A male boss of mine was bullied by a woman in our team and she had gathered a group of minions to back her up. I backed my boss up as everything she said could be easily proved as nonsense. I got ostracised too but not long after that a few of us including me and my boss got moved to a newly set up department which stopped it

She was the union rep so thought she had more power than she did